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Meat Vegans and the like quick question....

Nice quote.

Only when and if they start talking like it is better than eating meat on some level.
 
Aren't most of the calorie-dense foods vegetarian? Peanut butter, for example, contains 1600 calories per cup. A meal of pasta with an olive oil-based sauce will easily get you over 1000.

It's not all salad and broccoli, you know. If anything, my problem has been in getting all the required nutrients without an excess of calories.

As to the idea that people with eating disorders using veganism as a cloak somehow reflects badly on veganism...that's just strange.
 
Almost every kind of meat is edible. The exceptions are rather hard to come by--things like polar-bear liver. Almost every kind of plant is inedible. But some of the exceptions--like wheat and rice--are readily cultivated.
 
DJ Hexadecibel said:
A psychology professor posited that if animals could feel pain, why not a plant? Several of his students, (with a knowledge of botany, no doubt) argued that plants don't have the receptors to record such stimuli. So, using an EKG connected to one of his bamboo plants, the professor plucked a leaf from it. When he did so, the meter jumped. Fascinated, the students watched as he plucked another, and the meter jumped again. A sceptic in the class objected, positing that the physical shock of physically pulling the leaf off was registering on the EKG, as would a shockwave.
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I recall something along these lines causing a bit of a stir in Popular Psychology -- pardon me, Psychology Today -- magazine back in the late 1960s/early 1970s. Discussion pretty well stopped cold after another investigator got similar results by measuring the GSR of a piece of styrofoam (expanded polystyrene, like the white beady stuff used to make cheap ice chests), which "behaved" in much the way described for the plant specimens. :-D

[edit] The "murder and line-up" sounds like an after-the-fact embellishment or the results of a demonstration having no controls and no protocol being interpreted as if it were a proper, genuine experiment.
 
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mumblethrax said:
Aren't most of the calorie-dense foods vegetarian? Peanut butter, for example, contains 1600 calories per cup. A meal of pasta with an olive oil-based sauce will easily get you over 1000.
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Yes, a lot of completely vegan foods tend to be very calorie-dense. There are quite a number of non-animal sources of bio-available protein that are higher density than meat (which has a fairly poor ratio). The only trick to vegan protein is getting the right balance of amino acids; and that's hardly rocket science. Meat is historically preferred among hunger-gatherer and early-agrarian cultures because it's fairly dense, and has a well-balanced amino acid profile. Most vegetable protein sources that carry the highest number of necessary amino acids are lacking in one particular one, lysine. Animals that eat those sources exclusively manufacture their own lysine. Humans do not. However, most grains, while being low in other amino acids, are very high in lysine; which allows a very simple diet to provide all necessary amino acids in sufficient quantity.

And you hardly have to eat massive quantities, since good sources of both are higher in bio-available densities than animal sources. Add to that the fact that most people, at least Americans, typically get several times the amount of protein that they actually need in their daily intake; that "problem" is pretty effectively debunked.

HDL fatty acids are very easy to get from vegan sources; which are much healthier than meat, since most animal sources have a poor HDL/LDL balance. Interesting note, there are several vegan fatty acid sources that have HDL/LDL balances worse than any animal source - namely Coconut oil and Palm oil. They're very commonly used in junk food.

There is only one nutritional problem with a purely vegan diet; and that's vitamin B12. This can be tricky, as there are very few vegan sources; and most of those have low bio-availability (due to absorption-blocking analogues). The one exception being certain strains of nutritional yeast; which contain high levels of B12, with a high bio-availability. However, it's still not a serious issue, since physical requirements are very low and B12 is recycled by the body. It can take 10-20 years under normal conditions before a lack of B12 begins to cause adverse effects. Supplements will eliminate any problems; and a lot of pre-packaged vegan foods are supplemented with B12. Again, hardly rocket science. In fact, severe cases of B12 deficiency are more common in non-vegetarians; typically those with poor diets, and heavy use of other substances which deplete or block absorption of B12, such as alcohol or tobacco.
 
luchog said:
Yes, a lot of completely vegan foods tend to be very calorie-dense. There are quite a number of non-animal sources of bio-available protein that are higher density than meat (which has a fairly poor ratio). The only trick to vegan protein is getting the right balance of amino acids; and that's hardly rocket science.
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That's quite true. For most people, but not all, depending on their genetics. Black beans and rice are a complete protein. Besides, they taste good, especially if you use oregano and garlic and some vinegar. So, for most people, it's doable.

But I've found that it isn't possible to say this. When you do, a lot of vegans start jumping up and down and wave their arms and bounce their heads against the wall and say "Food-combining is discredited, you stupid bastard!"

This behavior is so much like well researched effects of protein starvation that I have to wonder.
 
luchog said:
However, most grains, while being low in other amino acids, are very high in lysine; which allows a very simple diet to provide all necessary amino acids in sufficient quantity.
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It's the other way around, isn't it? Grains tend to fulfill requirements for most essential amino acids, except for lysine.
 
epepke said:
"Food-combining is discredited, you stupid bastard!"

This behavior is so much like well researched effects of protein starvation that I have to wonder.
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Wait what are they talking about?

The only "food combining" I've ever heard of is the diet that says you shouldn't eat fruit within such and such a time of carbohydrates, etc. Which just seemed dumb to me.
 
Looking for dietary advice

luchog said:
Yes, a lot of completely vegan foods tend to be very calorie-dense. There are quite a number of non-animal sources of bio-available protein that are higher density than meat (which has a fairly poor ratio).

[snipped more good stuff]
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That seemed to me a good example of some quite sensible sounding information. I have been trying to educate myself in this area, but am having a hard time finding my way around.
For health reasons I really need to make changes to my diet, but I am finding that the subject matter is a real woo-woo minefield. Even the supposedly authoritative sources appear to frequently contradict each other.
I am not looking to the group for dietary advice, per se, but rather some help in finding good sources of such. Recommendations for good books, for example, or sensible web sites.
Note that I have no philosophical objection to eating tasty animals, I'm looking at this purely from a health point of view.
Any suggestions gratefully received.
 
mumblethrax said:
It's the other way around, isn't it? Grains tend to fulfill requirements for most essential amino acids, except for lysine.
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Oops, you're right. Had them backwards. That's what I get for trying to do it all from memory while at work.

There are a few grains that do have a complete protein (amino acid balance), and don't need combining; most notably amaranth. Soy, as well, has a complete protein, and higher concentrations of bio-available amino acids than animal products. Other than that, some combination of grains and legumes is needed.
 
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