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Meat Vegans and the like quick question....

Mongrel said:
I think it's only B12 that's a major problem and there are many supplements for this.
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Heh, I expected that link to be to a pill-style supplement. Nice one!

B12 does occur naturally in many plants too, but there hasn't currently been a plant source found that will reliably fulfil one's dietary requirements.

Except this one perhaps...

"Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the lack of aneamia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in developing countries. "
source - http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

Hmmm, think I'll just stick to the Marmite on toast.
 
DJ Hexadecibel said:
A psychology professor posited that if animals could feel pain, why not a plant? Several of his students, (with a knowledge of botany, no doubt) argued that plants don't have the receptors to record such stimuli. So, using an EKG connected to one of his bamboo plants, the professor plucked a leaf from it.
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Hehe, I presume by EKG you mean electrocardiogram (I'm not sure what the device is if you don't mean that), which measures electrical voltage in the HEART. Was the plant's HEART beating faster? ;)
 
Valmorian said:
Hehe, I presume by EKG you mean electrocardiogram (I'm not sure what the device is if you don't mean that), which measures electrical voltage in the HEART. Was the plant's HEART beating faster? ;)
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EKG is taken from the German translation: Elektrokardiogramm, but I dunno, I could've gotten the details wrong. I think the device used to measure the reaction was similiar to a lie-detector test. . .it's been a few years since I told that story, any further investigation is encouraged. Now if we had an artichoke. . .
 
DJ Hexadecibel said:
EKG is taken from the German translation: Elektrokardiogramm, but I dunno, I could've gotten the details wrong. I think the device used to measure the reaction was similiar to a lie-detector test. . .it's been a few years since I told that story, any further investigation is encouraged. Now if we had an artichoke. . .
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Lie Detectors work based upon galvanic skin response. That's a different thing than an EKG. In any case, I think you should be extremely skeptical of that story. A plant being able to detect a "plant murderer" would surely be an important enough scientific discovery that it would be featured in more than just a Sci-Fi class.

L. Ron Hubbard (of Scientology fame) used to hook up plants to his "E-Meter" (also a galvanic skin response meter) and "audit" them. You can make your own guesses about how scientific that turned out to be.. ;)
 
DJ Hexadecibel said:
A psychology professor...
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For me the bolded word is what sets my alarm bells ringing.
Would it have made such a good story if it then followed up with "And then the Professor showed us the rig connected to the fake <device> and lectured us on how easy it is to decieve ourselves. That's why we test and re-test under controlled conditions"
 
Not eating meat is not healthy in my opinion. It is obvious that man has a long history of eating other animals and we are not alone in this. A lot of other animals eat meat as well. So there is nothing particularly wrong with it. I find what the band Tool has to say on the topic to be rather funny and on target:

And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest. And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possesed me then. And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?" And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust." And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared, "Hear me now, I have seen the light! They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!" Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus.

This is necessary.
Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........

According to some not eating meat for moral reasons is or borders on being an eating disorder called Orthorexia. Latin for Correct Eating. This eating disorder is characterized by a persons diet becoming more and more restrictive over time in the individuals attempt to be healthy and or moral. Since vegan tends to be on the border of eating disorders I would be more worried about your mothers health than your own. I am not saying that all Vegan have an eating disorder, but it is often the veil eating disorders are shrouded in. Protein provides a lot of benefit, essential amino acids, satiety, testosterone production etc... To me Vegan just means more work maintaining a healthy diet and I don't have time for that. Meat is a perfectly normal and healthy part of the human diet and anyone that gets too worked up over it for moral or health reasons should be offered a nicely seasoned medium rare steak.
 
0oTITANo0 said:
To me Vegan just means more work maintaining a healthy diet.
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Gonna have to chime in again. :rolleyes: I call laziness.

When you make dinner, what's an average meal for you? Is it a
  • Ug! Throw meat on fire, wait till it burns
  • Prep a proper Bolognaise\chilli and spend twenty minutes in the kitchen
  • I enjoy cooking and am happy to spend an hour or an hour and a half cooking a nice tender beef stew or braised lamb shanks
  • If it takes more than 5 minutes in the microwave or is longer than half hour delivery I'm not interested

If you enjoy cooking and use a smidgen of imagination any of the above are achievable. Yes it does take a smidgen more thought to create a menu that covers all of your nutritional requirements but an anecdotal view is that nalry all the omnivores I know don't think about it at all, they should. Most people are midly deficient in one respect or another, what most serious Vegis and Vegans have done is look at what a restricted diet offers and then looked at what can supply those shortcomings and you can look this up in any book. Once you've adapted to vegan cooking (and it's not rocket science) it's not hard to create nutritionally fulfilling meals. Go and learn basic nutrition and how to cook properly
 
I spend a lot of time cooking. I generally spend two days out of every 14 planning and preparing for 14 days worth of food. I do full body workouts every three to four days depending on how intense the workout was and other factors. In the last six months I have added 25 pounds of muscle to my body. I cannot imagine eating vegetarian on a daily basis. The calorie density of vegetarian food is generally so low that I would literally be grazing on food all day like a cow. As it is now I eat 5 600 calorie meals a day, more if I went to work out that day. Eating vegetarian would be a full time job to prepare and consume 3000 calories or more a day. On top of that I would be forced to expend time and attention on making sure I am getting the essential amino acids through vegetables that I would not have to spend simply by eating meat. I have one 24 hour day, I don't want to spend my time worrying about nutritional content especially when I can eat meat and forget about it. I have better things to do with my time. What I eat is already enough work as it is, so like I said: To me Vegan just means more work maintaining a healthy diet.
 
0oTITANo0 said:
Since vegan tends to be on the border of eating disorders...
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Would you care to qualify this, as you seem to present it as fact? Are you referring to a specific eating disorder, or do you consider veganism itself to be an eating disorder? Where do these borders lie?

Cheers,
Rat.
 
Terry said:
Trust me, 3000 calories a day on a vegan diet is no trouble at all.
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But it may be if you try to replicate a meat-eating diet with soya and the like, which is where, I suspect, the problem comes from.

Cheers,
Rat.
 
0oTITANo0 said:
I spend a lot of time cooking. I generally spend two days out of every 14 planning and preparing for 14 days worth of food. I do full body workouts every three to four days depending on how intense the workout was and other factors. In the last six months I have added 25 pounds of muscle to my body. I cannot imagine eating vegetarian on a daily basis. The calorie density of vegetarian food is generally so low that I would literally be grazing on food all day like a cow. As it is now I eat 5 600 calorie meals a day, more if I went to work out that day. Eating vegetarian would be a full time job to prepare and consume 3000 calories or more a day. On top of that I would be forced to expend time and attention on making sure I am getting the essential amino acids through vegetables that I would not have to spend simply by eating meat. I have one 24 hour day, I don't want to spend my time worrying about nutritional content especially when I can eat meat and forget about it. I have better things to do with my time. What I eat is already enough work as it is, so like I said: To me Vegan just means more work maintaining a healthy diet.
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So a quick "In my highly specialised lifestyle" wouldn't have gone amiss then? :D

Ok - I've never done a full on nutrition course, I was just a chef who had a few training courses regarding general stuff and here's a quick question. What amino acids does meat provide that Tofu, Soy, Textured Vegetable Protein, Fungi or Beans and Pulses can't?

And for energy (and we're talking non-processed here) nuts are probably the best providers of it in a balanced diet, sugar can provide more calories but it does bugger all for anything else, and who'd've thunk it? Nut's also contain vital fats, vitamins and minerals in handy bite size pieces

Please take your strawman somewhere else.

Edit for neatness
 
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I spend a lot of time cooking. I generally spend two days out of every 14 planning and preparing for 14 days worth of food. I do full body workouts every three to four days depending on how intense the workout was and other factors. In the last six months I have added 25 pounds of muscle to my body. I cannot imagine eating vegetarian on a daily basis. The calorie density of vegetarian food is generally so low that I would literally be grazing on food all day like a cow. As it is now I eat 5 600 calorie meals a day, more if I went to work out that day. Eating vegetarian would be a full time job to prepare and consume 3000 calories or more a day. On top of that I would be forced to expend time and attention on making sure I am getting the essential amino acids through vegetables that I would not have to spend simply by eating meat. I have one 24 hour day, I don't want to spend my time worrying about nutritional content especially when I can eat meat and forget about it. I have better things to do with my time. What I eat is already enough work as it is, so like I said: To me Vegan just means more work maintaining a healthy diet.
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You diet sounds like a lot of work to me :jaw-dropp I get quite a bit of exercise, so seem to need quite a few calories to avoid losing weight. I do eat meat and fish, but get quite a lot of my calories from grazing on lots of nuts/fruits/cereal etc. (I like eating :D ); none of these need any significant preparation. I find alcohol also works well :)

Again, I'm not sure why veganism should be seen as close to an eating disorder.
 
strathmeyer said:
No, only real people will be invited to the revolution; the vegerians won't be there.
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OK, so vegetarians I get - fuzzy definition, but no meat; vegans I get - no animal products. Vegerians I don't get. Vegetarians who would like to be vegans but can't be arsed?

Cheers,
Rat.
 
Vegan tends to be used as a mask for eating disorders because it does not draw suspicion and it can be used as a sort of trump card to justify unusual or restrictive eating behaviors. It is socially acceptable to be Vegan at least to a point where being anorexic or bulemic is not. You can have, for instance Anorexic people who eat a lot of vegetables that are low in calories. On the surface this person does not look like they have an eating disorder because they are eating, but they are starving themselved down just the same. I am not saying Vegan is an eating disorder but as a category of behavior it lies on the grey area between normal eating and eating disorders. I am sure that there are normal well adjusted people who do not eat meat. One of my good friends is a vegetarian because he cannot digest meat very well. He takes some sort of pills for this. He can eat some types of fish and tends to go for predigested protein sources found in dairy products. However I am skeptical that vegetarian living is healthy in general. Vegetarianism goes hand in hand with a lot of Woo ideas which also makes it suspect. It tends to come as part of a package of metaphysical and mystical beliefs for one thing and I believe that it has been sold in popular culture as an admirable behavior to emulate when there is no real evidence that it is valuable as a health practice. It may not be explicitly harmful either. Since there is nothing wrong with eating meat I dont have a problem substituting a burger for a soy patty.

Speaking in proportions the content of my diet would be just as valuable for a man who weighed 150 pounds. Eating beans and other amino containing vegetables makes it difficult to get the correct proportion of protein to carbohydrates in your diet. You may be getting your essential aminos but unless you start eating refined vegetable products like Tofu you cant easily get your ratios right. At that point you can mix Tofu for Chicken breasts. I eat plenty of nuts, fruits and vegetables. I also eat meat. I suppose you could easily eat 3000 calories in a day with a vegetarian diet. But you could also easily eat 3000 calories in a day if you ate 5 pints of Ben and Jerry's. I don't think you can get the right balance of proteins, fats and carbs very easily on a vegetarian diet without resorting to soy burgers and tofu dogs. Meat is a natural part of a human diet. There is nothing wrong with it. I doubt that I could maintain my muscle mass without eating meat however this does not mean that meat is optional for someone who does not work out. So, I still think Veg is more work for the same reward you get from a diet containing meat unless your reward is a guilt free conscience because you did not eat a slaughtered animal. I can't say anything to that. Eating meat simply does not bother me.
 
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