The Gospel

Thank you. I keep her regularly trimmed, although all that licking seems to mess it up.
 
and whats this business of fallen angels taking human wives and having mighty children in Genesis. it seems someone left out a little info. is this something left over from the oral history?
 
lostnick3 said:
and whats this business of fallen angels taking human wives and having mighty children in Genesis. it seems someone left out a little info. is this something left over from the oral history?
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Probably. Isn't most of Genesis, though? The Fall is a "just so" story to explain why life sucks and we die, Cain and his descendants seem to be some kind of folk heroes who probably had their own stories and were assimilated in the Biblical narrative.

17 Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch. 18 To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.

Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron.
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The absurdly long-lived patriarchs between Adam and Noah have parallels in (I think) Babylonian/Sumerian myth. Except their hero-kings lived for thousands of years. Take that, Methuselah! Incidentally, Enoch (Noah's great-great-grandfather) seems to have acquired a myth of his own.

Genesis 5:23-24

Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
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Hebrews 11:5

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
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The Epistle of Jude mentions Enoch, too:

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
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(There's some righteously freaky stuff in that letter. I think Jude was dipping into John of Patmos' stash)

The flood story is hardly original. And yeah, the fallen angels taking mortal women sounds pretty kinky. Sort of reminds me of stories of the Olympian gods who's boink anything that moved, and thus gave us heroes, gods and monsters like Theseus (son of Poseidon), Perseus, Herakles (sons of Zeus), Dionysios (son of Zeus also), the Minotaur (son of Zeus and the Queen of Crete)...

Noah's descendants: again, more cultural heroes assimilated by the Israelites.

The tower of Babel... no comment. Sans commentaire.

Okay, that's enough for now. Say, lostnick3, what's the evidence for your belief that the bans on masturbation, sex before marriage and making women chattel came about when Constantine the Pagan decided to codify what he and his experts considered Gospel, then put every thing under a central control?
 
when genesis 38:9 became misunderstoud to mean any spilled seed. i could be wrong about the timeing.
 
Palimpsest said:
And yeah, the fallen angels taking mortal women sounds pretty kinky.
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Hmm...let me see, two original humans, kids would have to marry their sisters, so it's a choice between a big studly winged stranger descending from on high to go "Hey, baby, let me tell you 'bout paradise" and my snot-nosed inbred dirt-farming brother or cousin?

Yeah, that's a tough choice.
 
UrsulaV said:
Hmm...let me see, two original humans, kids would have to marry their sisters, so it's a choice between a big studly winged stranger descending from on high to go "Hey, baby, let me tell you 'bout paradise" and my snot-nosed inbred dirt-farming brother or cousin?

Yeah, that's a tough choice.
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now i had to go look stuff up

angels do not have wings.

as to their nature, it is essentially the same as that of man, for not only understanding and will attributed to them, but they have been mistake's for men when they appeared and Paul represents them as capable of disobedience (Heb.ii,.7,16.) encyclopedia of occultism
 
lostnick3 said:
angels do not have wings.
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They don't?

Isaiah 6:2 "Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly."

We can hazard a guess that some angels may not have wings, or at the very least, do not need to manifest their wings, but some angels described in the Bible definitely have wings.

I'll go out on a limb and say that if you're a hot fallen angel cruisin' for chicks on the young earth, you'll have your wings on. I mean, that'd be hawt.
 
kurious_kathy said:
I of course look at it a bit differently like "God hears those who cry out for help" this is of course because of my past experiences.
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From the thread If the Christian god existed....
BlackCat said:
And how disgusting that he said he would help those who cry out to him, and yet I received no answer.

If he exists, he will have to answer to me, because it is the lack of an answer that started me on the route to being an atheist. Is he going to punish me because he refused to help me?
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Well? What's your answer to that?

BlackCat
 
BlackCat said:
From the thread If the Christian god existed....

Well? What's your answer to that?

BlackCat
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Hi Black Cat! I don't know all the details about your past but I know that scripture tells us all who ask receive. I myself had a broken spirit because of what I saw sin doing to me in my life. I really repented and asked Jesus to forgive me. This was my first step in coming to faith. I new I needed a savior.

When you cried out and asked God for help did you ever have that type of an awakening or realization that made you really want God in your life? I new I couldn't go on without Him, and He was and is here for me. He wants to be there for everyone who believes and receives Him for who He is and what He has done on that cross to save the world!

1 John 1:8-10...
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
 
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Black Cat meet Kurious Kathy........Kurious Kathy meet Black Cat

aka

new kid on the block meet local nut.......local nut meet new kid on the block
 
You are right Pauliesonne, I'm nuts about Jesus! All the good things come down from the Father of Lights! I gotta shout for joy because I know the one that saved me!
 
kurious_kathy said:
Hi Black Cat! I don't know all the details about your past but I know that scripture tells us all who ask receive. I myself had a broken spirit because of what I saw sin doing to me in my life. I really repented and asked Jesus to forgive me. This was my first step in coming to faith. I new I needed a savior.

When you cried out and asked God for help did you ever have that type of an awakening or realization that made you really want God in your life? I new I couldn't go on without Him, and He was and is here for me. He wants to be there for everyone who believes and receives Him for who He is and what He has done on that cross to save the world!
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You see Black Cat, religion is a bit like Alice Through The Looking Glass. You are trying to apply your logic and reason to God. God plan wasn't intended for life to be what you want. It's what God wants for you. Let go. Let God. Give your life to God and surrender to his will and you will come to faith and have God in your life.

Of course you could also just take Peyote or Mescaline. Either way you still are on your own with your problems. I know, I've been there.
 
kurious_kathy said:
You are right Pauliesonne, I'm nuts about Jesus! All the good things come down from the Father of Lights! I gotta shout for joy because I know the one that saved me!
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And you surrendered your reason in the process. Now you just blindly follow what others tell you is the truth rather than seeking it out for yourself.
 
RandFan said:
As if saying it and believing it made it true.
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Hi RF, and you can count on it! If God said it we can believe it. I don't understand why after your service as a missionary you turned away from the faith?
I would just like to encourage you to give God your heart. The days truely are evil and Jesus is coming back just like He said He would!

Romans 3:23-24.....
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
 
Whatever, KK(K). kookoo

Let's look at the verse from Romans that you quoted and think about the implications involved. God created humans to be perfect. Then they were *allowed* to fall from grace (for, if they were truly perfect, no such thing could have ever occurred). Then God banishes them from Eden and 'original sin' is upon them and all their descendants. Then God waits a while, does some mostly nasty things inbetween, and sends himself to remove all sins, which he *allowed* in the first place and then applied punishment toward. If this is a plan, God needs a shrink...

Robert
 
kurious_kathy said:
Hi RF, and you can count on it! If God said it we can believe it. I don't understand why after your service as a missionary you turned away from the faith?
I would just like to encourage you to give God your heart. The days truely are evil and Jesus is coming back just like He said He would!

Romans 3:23-24.....
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
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(I'm most likely wasting my breath here, but. . .)

Kathy, have you ever heard of Dan Barker? He's a former evangelist turned atheist, and the author of "Losing Faith in Faith", Here's a passage from his work explaining how he became an atheist, you can read the whole thing at http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=lostfaith

I did not lose my faith, I gave it up purposely. The motivation that drove me into the ministry is the same that drove me out. I have always wanted to know. Even as a child I fervently pursued truth. I was rarely content to accept things without examination, and my examinations were intense. I was a thirsty learner, a good student, and a good minister because of that drive. I always took things apart and put them back together again.

Since I was taught and believed Christianity was the answer, the only hope for "man," I dedicated myself to understanding all I possibly could. I devoured every book, every sermon, and the bible. I prayed, fasted and obeyed biblical teaching. I decided that I would lean my whole weight upon the truth of scripture. This attitude, I am sure, gave the impression that I was a notch above, that I could be trusted as a Christian authority and leader. Christians, eager for substantiation, gladly allowed me to assume a place of leadership and I took it as confirmation of my holy calling.

But my mind did not go to sleep. In my thirst for knowledge I did not limit myself to Christian authors but curiously desired to understand the reasoning behind nonChristian thinking. I figured the only way to truly grasp a subject was to look at it from all sides. If I had limited myself to Christian books I would probably still be a Christian today. I read philosophy, theology, science and psychology. I studied evolution and natural history. I read Bertrand Russell, Thomas Paine, Ayn Rand, John Dewey and others. At first I laughed at these worldly thinkers, but I eventually started discovering some disturbing facts--facts that discredited Christianity. I tried to ignore these facts because they did not integrate with my religious world view.

For years I went through an intense inner conflict. On the one hand I was happy with the direction and fulfillment of my Christian life; on the other hand I had intellectual doubts. Faith and reason began a war within me. And it kept escalating. I would cry out to God for answers, and none would come. Like the battered wife who clings to hope, I kept trusting that God would someday come through. He never did.

The only proposed answer was faith, and I gradually grew to dislike the smell of that word. I finally realized that faith is a cop-out, a defeat--an admission that the truths of religion are unknowable through evidence and reason. It is only undemonstrable assertions that require the suspension of reason, and weak ideas that require faith. I just lost faith in faith. Biblical contradictions became more and more discrepant, apologist arguments more and more absurd and, when I finally discarded faith, things became more and more clear.
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From the accounts I've read on the forum, most former believers' stories are similar. The difference between you and them is you've turned off your mind and just accept everything the church offers you blindly. And until you start thinking for yourself you really have nothing to offer anyone here.
 
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