Tom Delay, American Taliban?

[headscratcher4]

Thought this, from yesterday's Washington Post was interesting...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/07/AR2006040701942.html

May need to register to access.

Possibly, the real "American Taliban" is not yet in Jail.

"And now, DeLay says he prayed long and hard before God made clear to him that He no longer wants DeLay to represent Texas's 22nd Congressional District. Instead, DeLay says, his God wants him to be a messenger -- on a much broader scale. And we will see DeLay constantly smiling as he delivers his message because in his heart he knows that we hopeless sinners will always hate the messenger."

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

Is there some Buddist god of power, corruption and money. If so, that was the "god" that Delay is referring to.

He wants to be a messenger of the lobby sort. They make much more money than those other messengers with tight shorts, tattoos, piercings, and riding bicycles.

Charlie (Bush'll give him a medal) Monoxide

 

[Ipecac]

Wow. What a delusional, corrupt, hypocritical, arrogant, fundamentalist scumbag. I'm glad he's leaving Congress and I hope to never hear his name again but when he's convicted.

 

[Ipecac]

DeLay's America would acknowledge that the Constitution was inspired by the Bible; it would promote prayer and worship, and would stop gun control, outlaw abortion, limit the rights of gays, curb contraception, end the constitutional separation of church and state, and adopt the Ten Commandments as guiding principles for public schools.

Prayer and worship and the Ten Commandments. Guns.

It never ceases to amaze me that the Christian right supports such a weird combination of contradictory issues.

 

[Ziggurat]

Possibly, the real "American Taliban" is not yet in Jail.

Overt religiosity from politicians makes me uncomfortable, and I'm opposed to a lot of the political goals of religious conservatives. But Delay as the "American Taliban"? We need a second version of Godwin's law. Really, if you can't criticize Delay without trivializing the true horror and barbarity of the Taliban by equating the two, you're just being lazy.

 

[jj]

Overt religiosity from politicians makes me uncomfortable, and I'm opposed to a lot of the political goals of religious conservatives. But Delay as the "American Taliban"? We need a second version of Godwin's law. Really, if you can't criticize Delay without trivializing the true horror and barbarity of the Taliban by equating the two, you're just being lazy.

Well, Ziggy, I think that it's premature to suggest he IS the Taliban, but I don't think it's at all unreasonable to suggest that he wants to BE the American Taliban. Look at the whole "Christian Reconstructionist" movement, of which he is an obvious part (I don't care if his name shows up on the rolls, he goes 10/10 in action), what they desire, and what their end goals are.

Then go read what the 1950's were like with the Red Scare, and multiply that to the point it gets 20% of the population, and that is Delay's personal wet dream.

For where people like Delay appear to head, you might check out a fiction book (it's a bit of a wade-through-this-book, I fear) called "Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood. Yes, it's speculative fiction. No, I don't think it's too far off what we see as a desired state of affairs from the radical right.

 

[Ziggurat]

Well, Ziggy, I think that it's premature to suggest he IS the Taliban, but I don't think it's at all unreasonable to suggest that he wants to BE the American Taliban.

So it's not unreasonable to suggest that Delay wants to institute summary public executions, to beat women for dressing improperly, and to kill people for their sexual orientation? Because that's what the Taliban did regularly, and that's what comparing Delay to the Taliban means. Sorry, jj, but I guess I've got a different definition of the word "unreasonable" than you do.

For where people like Delay appear to head, you might check out a fiction book (it's a bit of a wade-through-this-book, I fear) called "Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood. Yes, it's speculative fiction. No, I don't think it's too far off what we see as a desired state of affairs from the radical right.

Bwahahahahahaha! Oh boy, that's rich!

No, I haven't read it. But I've seen the movie. And it was good fiction. But I wouldn't call it "speculative fiction" any more than I'd call 2001: A Space Odyssey "speculative fiction".

 

[headscratcher4]

Overt religiosity from politicians makes me uncomfortable, and I'm opposed to a lot of the political goals of religious conservatives. But Delay as the "American Taliban"? We need a second version of Godwin's law. Really, if you can't criticize Delay without trivializing the true horror and barbarity of the Taliban by equating the two, you're just being lazy.

Sorry, if he seeks to eliminate seperation of church and state, there is little difference between DeLay and the Taliban. He envisions a state run fundumentalist interpretation of the Bible...how is that different (save for the object of worship) from what the Taliban did in Afghanastan?

I'll admit I can be lazy, but ultimately, DeLay is a subversive and subversive of mine (and I think your) liberty and freedom to belive or not believe.

I don't feel there is any particular reason to cut him much slack here....

 

[headscratcher4]

"So it's not unreasonable to suggest that Delay wants to institute summary public executions, to beat women for dressing improperly, and to kill people for their sexual orientation? Because that's what the Taliban did regularly, and that's what comparing Delay to the Taliban means. Sorry, jj, but I guess I've got a different definition of the word "unreasonable" than you do."

What do you think the fundumentalist Christian state that DeLay envisions would look like? Methinks your accurage description of the Taliban is right on target with the vision of all to many Fundumentalist Americans.

 

[Ziggurat]

What do you think the fundumentalist Christian state that DeLay envisions would look like?

Utah.

Methinks your accurage description of the Taliban is right on target with the vision of all to many Fundumentalist Americans.

Sure. But "all too many" could be just one. But how many Christians in the US do you think actually believe in something so extreme, and what evidence do you have for that beyond paranoia? I've never met anyone like that, I haven't even seen anyone on TV like that, and I sure haven't seen Delay make any comments to suggest he believes in anything nearly so radical. All I see is you hyperventilating, because you can't keep your criticism of Delay (who I personally think is a schmuck) in any kind of reasonable perspective. It's as if you think your argument gets stronger by making a more severe accusation. It doesn't. It just gets more shrill.

 

[UserGoogol]

No, I haven't read it. But I've seen the movie. And it was good fiction. But I wouldn't call it "speculative fiction" any more than I'd call 2001: A Space Odyssey "speculative fiction".

Er, 2001 was speculative fiction. Speculative fiction is a term which has come refer to genres which "speculate" about hypothetical worlds. Science fiction, fantasy, dystopian novels, alternative history, and whatnot. It was also invented by people in the science fiction community who were pissed off and decided that they wanted a new name.

 

[headscratcher4]

Utah.


... But how many Christians in the US do you think actually believe in something so extreme, and what evidence do you have for that beyond paranoia?

Some polling I've seen suggests its a third. And I have met Americans who believe exactly that.

BTW...how many Germans believed that the Jews were evil and should be exterminated? Remember, Hitler was elected (with support of just over a third, if I remember correctly). Not that DeLay is Hitler...yet (though he was an exterminator in his previous life).

 

[Ziggurat]

Sorry, if he seeks to eliminate seperation of church and state, there is little difference between DeLay and the Taliban.

Do you honestly think that Delay is planning on banning Muslim prayer, that he wants to tear down every mosque from Seattle to Miami? And what you seem determined not to understand is that even were he to do so, that it STILL wouldn't make him the equivalent of the Taliban. Do you deny that there's even a difference between Saudi Arabia and the Taliban, or is it all just one blur to you? Can you not comprehend that even a country which doesn't permit the construction of a single church hasn't sunken to the same levels of primitive depravity that were the hallmark of the Taliban?

He envisions a state run fundumentalist interpretation of the Bible...how is that different (save for the object of worship) from what the Taliban did in Afghanastan?

Does he? The author says, "Afterward, I told DeLay I was somewhat troubled by the idea that he essentially wanted to remold the government to meet his fundamentalist Christian worldview." That's the closest the article gets to saying that this is what Delay wants: it won't even come out and state this, but only floats it as an "idea". But is it what Delay wants, and if so, what IS Delay's fundamentalist vision? The article is, to be charitable, vague on this point. Would he outlaw divorce? Would he ban adult movies? Would he mandate the teaching of creationism? What, EXACTLY, does he want? We don't really know, but the author made sure it all sounded extreme, however vague it was. I think you've been snowed.

I don't feel there is any particular reason to cut him much slack here....

You misunderstand why I'm jumping all over you. I'm not doing so to protect Delay, I'm doing so because WE need to be able to put things in perspective. We need to be able to recognize true and absolute evil when it rears its head. We need to be able to understand the difference between opponents who might harm our interests (which is really your complaint against Delay) with enemies who want to destroy us absolutely. That kind of seemingly simple perspective is far more lacking today that it should be. And a flippant willingness to equate a US congressman to one of the most brutal and backwards regimes in the history of mankind is just another example of that loss of perspective. Cutting Delay slack is not what I care about.

 

[Ziggurat]

Some polling I've seen suggests its a third.

Got a source? Because I don't believe that for a second.

And I have met Americans who believe exactly that.

"That" belief being what, exactly? That women should never work, or be seen in public without a male escort? Or that gays should be executed by crushing them with a stone wall? Or how about public stoning for adulterers? What beliefs, exactly, did these Americans you knew espouse which made them equivalent to the Taliban? Details, my man, details!

BTW...how many Germans believed that the Jews were evil and should be exterminated? Remember, Hitler was elected (with support of just over a third, if I remember correctly).

No, he was appointed. Jeeze, get your Nazi parallels straight.

Not that DeLay is Hitler...yet (though he was an exterminator in his previous life).

I guess I didn't even need to propose a Taliban version of Godwin's law - the original came in handy after all.

 

[jj]

"So it's not unreasonable to suggest that Delay wants to institute summary public executions, to beat women for dressing improperly, and to kill people for their sexual orientation? Because that's what the Taliban did regularly, and that's what comparing Delay to the Taliban means. Sorry, jj, but I guess I've got a different definition of the word "unreasonable" than you do."

What do you think the fundumentalist Christian state that DeLay envisions would look like? Methinks your accurage description of the Taliban is right on target with the vision of all to many Fundumentalist Americans.

I think that the radical right (the far out loonybins, among which I include Delay and a few other prominent politicians, no, not W, I'm undecided there what he stands for, if anything) would be right at home in a Taliban-like country. Yes, including public executions, subjugating women, shooting gays, etc.

Think of Fred Phelps here, yes?

 

[headscratcher4]

I give.

I can't source it, and I am the first to admit faulty memory or having misread something.

And, yes, again, I've screwed up my "Nazi" parallel. Nazi's won a third of the vote or more, Hitler was appointed.

I have played fast and loose with my analogies and let my fear of fundumentalist religious nuts run rampant.

Mia Culpa.

 

[jj]

But how many Christians in the US do you think actually believe in something so extreme,

You do realize that it doesn't take many, especially when they hide their agenda until elected. Or don't you?

Look at the way that the creationist lobby is invading schoolboards, running "stealth" candidates, etc, and then coming out for banning science outright. (N.B. banning clear, factual discussion of evolultion is banning science in my book, and they don't want factual discussion.)

 

[Chaos]

*snip*
No, he was appointed. Jeeze, get your Nazi parallels straight.
*snip*

Hitler and his associates did get about 30-32 percent of the votes in the last free election in January ´33.

 

[Mephisto]

Sorry, if he seeks to eliminate seperation of church and state, there is little difference between DeLay and the Taliban. He envisions a state run fundumentalist interpretation of the Bible...how is that different (save for the object of worship) from what the Taliban did in Afghanastan?

I'll admit I can be lazy, but ultimately, DeLay is a subversive and subversive of mine (and I think your) liberty and freedom to belive or not believe.

I don't feel there is any particular reason to cut him much slack here....

You got an AMEN from me! Isn't it funny how good "God-Fearing Christians can also be crooks? Isn't it funny how this adminstration claims to be led by Christ yet when was Christ ever an advocate for war or torture? Isn't it funny how long it took for everyone to realize this?

 

[Ziggurat]

You do realize that it doesn't take many, especially when they hide their agenda until elected. Or don't you?

Oh. I see. You've divined their diabolic secret plot, and are now trying to alert a sleeping nation to the impending doom of religious mania about to sweep the nation and turn us all into Pat Robertson's slaves.

But Delay WAS elected - where's his record of acting like the Taliban? I guess political analysis is more fun if you're allowed to attribute hidden agendas even to politicians who have already served office. Like all those Stalinists running as progressive democrats. Or the reform party candidates who really want to build landing strips for gay Martians in Des Moines.

But whatever. Go ahead and paint Delay with the worst possible label you can think of - after all, who needs any perspective or sense of proportion once you've established opposition to him and his policies?