The Gospel

[hellaeon]

Uhhhh the bible....

to take literally the level of english and worldview understanding 2000 years ago in a book and apply it to today is a total joke. I get brain seizure trying to figure out where to start with why not.

Its bad enough people still using windows 95 only 10 years on.

 

[RandFan]

Ha! I'm reading him. Were you at TAM4?

Yes! It was awsome.

 

[Ducky]

Yes! It was awsome.

Except for that guy hanging around the hairy kilted bastard. What was his name? bird something?

That guy was a dick.

 

[RandFan]

nope. 'glad to know you're making up for the years when you were afraid the devil ruled the waters.

I hadn't heard that one...all waters? Did you ever wear garments? Michael Shermer said he wanted to get some... When you give soda (uncaffeinated) two the boys on bikes, do you tell them you were Mormon...does the conversation ever go anywhere from there? How did you become an apostate--was in sudden? Don't you feel a tremendous relief? I know I do (former Catholic).

It's really odd to explain exactly how I feel. For years I mourned the loss. You might even find some of my early complaints here on this forum. I don't feel the sense of loss anymore. I finally feel free from it all. It literally took years.

I don't discuss my apostasy with missionaries. I don't feel the need. I share a bond with them that is seperate and apart from theology. 2 years of ones life at 19 and to live apart from home for the first time is an unbelievable head trip. More like mind f***. I required therapy when I got back home.

I don't want to give the wrong impression. I actually liked much of my mission it's just the monastic life style is very extreme and I was dealing with sexual repression that was causing me to engage in some risky behaviors. Trust me on this one folks, it's not nice to mess with mother nature. I had the potential to be one very messed up and anti-social person. Letting go of all of the strictures on sex has led to a 20 year relationship with a wonderful woman and an average and healthy sex life. In other words ignoring prohibitions and changing my views on sex got me closer to their ideal than following their rules. And I strongly recommend therapy for anyone suffering from what is termed sexual addiction. That apparently is a controversial term for some. Whatever the hell it is it can be cured. I think what was most helpful to me was understanding that sexual desire is natural and there is nothing wrong or perverted with its expression outside of marriage. On the contrary, such views have led to all sorts of screwed up people.

As to my apostasy, no it was anything but sudden. I can't really say when it began. I made a commitment in high-school to try and not deceive myself. My going through the temple ceremony was a huge red flag that caused me for the first time in my life wonder if it all wasn't BS. There were a number of events on my mission. Attending the University and studying science, philosophy, psychology and other courses.

But none of these things could trump my spirituality. I was a very spiritual person. Church evoked strong emotions and feelings of well being. I trusted that these feelings meant something. Then I encountered the Monty Hall Problem and was so convinced that the wrong answer was the right answer that when I finally worked it out it profoundly changed my perception. I no longer accepted my intuition at face value and this caused me to question whether or not my feelings had any value whatsoever as to finding the truth about god. It was about that time, mid-90's that I discovered Randi. It was just a matter of time after that. When I joined this forum a few years back I was borderline deist/agnostic. I'm now agnostic/atheist and getting comfortable simply labeling myself atheist.

Anyway, so much for the stream of conscious. I hope that answers your questions.

RandFan

P.S. I just noticed that my Join Date was Dec 2001. It's been more than a few years.

 

[RandFan]

Except for that guy hanging around the hairy kilted bastard. What was his name? bird something?

That guy was a dick.

I don't know, some see him as a super hero.

 

[articulett]

I don't know, some see him as a super hero.

I remember the kilted guy? Was that you?

I really like hearing your experiences. I have had several close Mormon friends.

I think the whole sex repression thing just gets you really horny which is translated as "being in love" and "chosen for marriage". It's a great meme for getting people to marry young and having lots of kids--though I think the Catholics exploited it better with their claim that god doesn't want you to use birth control.

I talked to a former Mormon at Tam, and I think his wife was still a believer, and I think he lives in Utah...but that's not you is it? He was a handsome lad, but I don't recall him wearing a kilt.

I think my Mormon friends planted the seed for my own quest for truth, because the idea that there were two potential "infallible leaders" caused a schism in any comfort I got from religion--and sent me on a desparate quest for answers. And they inspired Julia Sweeney's quest as well. I know it's not their goal to lead people towards atheism, but I feel a sort of gratitude to the boys on bikes none-the-less.

 

[RandFan]

I remember the kilted guy? Was that you?

No, but his freind is fowlsound.

I really like hearing your experiences. I have had several close Mormon friends.

I think the whole sex repression thing just gets you really horny which is translated as "being in love" and "chosen for marriage". It's a great meme for getting people to marry young and having lots of kids--though I think the Catholics exploited it better with their claim that god doesn't want you to use birth control.

I talked to a former Mormon at Tam, and I think his wife was still a believer, and I think he lives in Utah...but that's not you is it? He was a handsome lad, but I don't recall him wearing a kilt.

I think my Mormon friends planted the seed for my own quest for truth, because the idea that there were two potential "infallible leaders" caused a schism in any comfort I got from religion--and sent me on a desparate quest for answers. And they inspired Julia Sweeney's quest as well. I know it's not their goal to lead people towards atheism, but I feel a sort of gratitude to the boys on bikes none-the-less.

Cool, no that was me either. My wife is no longer a believer.

 

[kurious_kathy]

To which, I'm afraid, I must quote myself:

If nothing changes unless you accept Jesus, how did I change? How do millions of people who don't accept Jesus change? People change all the time, not just christians. Just because you had to have an imaginary friend to affect the change in yourself, doesn't mean that everybody does!

The thing that changed was I started to take God at His word and believe Him. Once I did that I was able to turn from darkness and start walking in the light. His light overcomes the darkness in the world. People are spiritually dead, or shall I put it like this, dead in their trespasses(sin).
How would I define this....Deeds of the flesh as explained in scripture...

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Once a person accepts Christ they repent and the Holy Spirit helps us walk in the spirit of truth that should be an obvious change in someones character...

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
As a Spirit filled believer we can ask Christ each day for the strength we need to overcome the challenges each day may present. Greater is He that is in me, than he who is in the world!

 

[Pauliesonne]

you do go on, don't ya bitch........

 

[RandFan]

The thing that changed was I started to take God at His word and believe Him. Once I did that I was able to turn from darkness and start walking in the light. His light overcomes the darkness in the world. People are spiritually dead, or shall I put it like this, dead in their trespasses(sin).
How would I define this....Deeds of the flesh as explained in scripture...

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Once a person accepts Christ they repent and the Holy Spirit helps us walk in the spirit of truth that should be an obvious change in someones character...

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
As a Spirit filled believer we can ask Christ each day for the strength we need to overcome the challenges each day may present. Greater is He that is in me, than he who is in the world!

Right, ask god to help you, BS. People are told that there is something wrong with them by thier self-righteous peers. So these people fast and pray and beg god to help. But help never comes even after years of depression and guilt. So some kill themselves while others suffer in silence.

 

[Dr Adequate]

So, to summarize, the role of God in your life is this:

(1) You decide to behave in a certain way.
(2) You ask God to help you behave in that way.
(3) You behave in that way.

Has it occurred to you that you might omit step (2)?

In my case, the chain of events goes like this:

(a) I decide to do something.
(b) I do it.

No imaginary middleman is required to explain why I do what I've decided to do.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I know where I've seen this before!

Crystal healing!

According to the crystal healers, there are certain Magic Rocks which instill, for example, the spirit of forgiveness into the wearer.

So the person using such a Magic Rock

(1) Decides that they need to forgive someone.
(2) Performs a ritual using the Magic Rock of Forgiveness.
(3) Finds to their utter astonishment that they feel in a forgiving mood.

Wow! Your so-called "science" can't explain that, can it! Hallelujah! Praise the Magic Rock!

for I have beheld the Miracle Of The Bleedin' Obvious.

 

[Roadtoad]

The thing that changed was I started to take God at His word and believe Him. Once I did that I was able to turn from darkness and start walking in the light. His light overcomes the darkness in the world. People are spiritually dead, or shall I put it like this, dead in their trespasses(sin).
How would I define this....Deeds of the flesh as explained in scripture...

Okay, Kathy. Precisely what makes a person spiritually dead? I spent some time discussing this very thing with a friend of mine who's been a practicing Baptist since he was a little kid. (He's nearly 60 now.) He's had a long term understanding of what the Bible says, and how to interpret it. (Just a hint, kiddo: If you need a pastor to explain it to you, you're not reading it. You're simply learning to parrot.)

Did it ever occur to you that much of what you're describing falls into a "Cause-Effect" category? That human nature, being what it is, and that we've a tendency to operate as herd-type animals, would tend to direct your actions more than what you've read in a book? There's this desire to belong to something, and you've found this group that will offer acceptance to you, provided you submit to their precepts, and are willing to sacrifice some of your own free will. Skip the buzzwords, and you can begin to see what's really happening.

It's fine if you truly accept and believe in the existence of God. It's not so good if you're not willing to think for yourself. And it sounds as though you don't.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Well, that's actually a cop from Paul in the book of Romans.

Yet, here we are again. What evidence do you present to this board which would (1.) convince us of the existence of God, (2.) convince us that you are truly in the spiritual state you're in? See, if we could see evidence of the second, we might be inclined towards accepting the first.

Yet, you continue to preach and preach and preach. You do a few good deeds here and there, and think you're accomplishing some great deed. You're not really here to testify to what you've been through, or to even just share the Gospel. Your incredible disrespect for everyone here, including me, and especially for people like Orangutango, Pauliesonne, and Fowlsound, (that line about how God is using Fowl's cancer to draw him closer to Him still sickens me, and left my very devout Christian wife looking at me funny, saying, "WTF?!?") demonstrates not only a profound lack of compassion, but to the contrary, a monumental hatred for everything that Jesus preached. You're not saved, you're churched.

Once a person accepts Christ they repent and the Holy Spirit helps us walk in the spirit of truth that should be an obvious change in someones character...

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
As a Spirit filled believer we can ask Christ each day for the strength we need to overcome the challenges each day may present. Greater is He that is in me, than he who is in the world!

And based on your behavior, the only thing in you is you.

Reminds me of the story Cliff Barnes used to tell about his friend, Billy Graham.

According to the story, Barnes and Graham were on a flight across the country. Back in tourist class, there was a very drunk man raising all kinds of hell in the back of the plane. At one point, a flight attendant told him, "Sir! You need to behave yourself! We have Billy Graham flying with us today!"

"BILLY GRAHAM!" the guy bellowed, charging forward. "Well, by God, I want to talk to that man! I got saved by him at one of his crusades!"

Barnes was about to step up and try to keep the man from getting up to Graham's seat, but Graham stopped him. "He's right," Graham said. "He's one I saved."

Who saved you, Kathy? God? The evidence is against you.

 

[ceo_esq]

Hear, hear! I may not much care for religion as truth, but I respect it as art.

I take it you're not of those Keatsian sorts who respects art, at least in great measure, for its truth-value.

 

[UrsulaV]

I take it you're not of those Keatsian sorts who respects art, at least in great measure, for its truth-value.

Nope. I paint winged eggplants and talking wombats for a living. Truth is for wildlife artists. I want the option to put little hats on things.

 

[Roadtoad]

Nope. I paint winged eggplants and talking wombats for a living. Truth is for wildlife artists. I want the option to put little hats on things.

Sig material!

 

[SuperCoolGuy]

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

KK, since you like PERSONAL EXPERIENCE as evidence:

sexual immorality . . . I don't cheat on my wife, nor want to, and I avoid porn.
impurity and debauchery . . . I bathe regularly, vaccinate and avoid strip joints
idolatry and witchcraft . . . I don't worship men or statues and I don't cast spells or even harbor any susperstitions
hatred . . . no hatred, except for tyranny, injustice and deception
discord . . . no discord, I am a major advocate for peace
jealousy . . . not jealous of anyone, whether rich in wisdom, money or intelligence
fits of rage . . . haven't hit a person since I was 10 years old
selfish ambition . . . I pursue science as career for humanity's sake
dissensions . . . from what?
factions . . . no member of any political party or christian denomination
envy . . . not envious of anyone
drunkenness . . . no signs of alcholism, binge drinking, public/private intoxication
orgies . . . never, no plans to

Yes, the acts of sinful nature ARE obvious. So obvious that many people don't need a religion or fear of hellfire to lead moral lives. I'll repeat that. SO OBVIOUS THAT MANY PEOPLE DON'T NEED A RELIGION OR FEAR OF HELLFIRE TO LEAD MORAL LIVES.

Are you really insinuating that all true believing Christians lead sinless lives? Is the evidence of belief good works? I thought the point of Christianity was that living according to the law was unnecessary and overemphasized as long as there was belief. Ah ha. Good works is PROOF of belief. See, KK, you are so good now, so you must truly have FAITH.

I avoid idolatry, so I cannot worship a man as God. For this price, YOU have sentenced me to Hell because YOU"RE OWN RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE feels good to you. You NEED me to be tortured so you can feel comfortable knowing you have a nice place to go to once you die.

Thanks.

Now, you're convincing yourself that you now lead a more moral existence than I or anyone else on this forum because you've recently found a nice belief system that promises you nice things.

THAT is PRIDE. You left it off the list. Satan would do the same.

And don't try that "none of us are sinless" crap. You brought up sin on this forum as evidence that Christianity is real because YOU think you're less of a jerk after embracing it.

I repent for the mistakes I make in life, whether known or unknown to others. I put more thought into the consequences of my actions than many of my Christian relatives, BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION. But one doesn't really need to if Jesus is constantly at the wheel. Try to absorb that. Putting things up to God all the time relieves you of responsibility. However, you still need rules. That's why the law is still important, whether Paul can convince you or not.

Obvious positive changes in behavior have occured upon conversion to MANY religions, not just yours. Good for you that your life is better for your particular conversion.

Shame on you to ASSUME everyone else needs the same thing. Yes, some do. Many don't, and yet those are the ones who are going to be tortured forever anyway. The rational folk who avoid superstition and ancient supernatural stories . . . like the Bible. Yes, the Bible. Global floods, talking bushes, talking snakes, wrestling God, concubines, flat earth.


Go ahead and ask God for forgiveness for being prideful, even though He already forgave that sin back when you were having withdrawl fits in your bed.

I'll apologize in advance for hurting your feelings because I think humanity deserves more than to be tortured for being the way they were created and using reason to understand good and evil while others pretend such knowledge is useless and await the rapture while using that knowledge in their lives anyway.

Living a sinful life, full of orgies, envy and drunkeness, according to Christianity, is okay if you repent and believe in Jesus. So quit changing the rules to suit your own personal preaching. Good works don't mean squat in your religion, so don't bother mentioning them.

 

[articulett]

Sex is a sin? I always thought orgasms were divine.

 

[articulett]

I know where I've seen this before!

Crystal healing!

According to the crystal healers, there are certain Magic Rocks which instill, for example, the spirit of forgiveness into the wearer.

So the person using such a Magic Rock

(1) Decides that they need to forgive someone.
(2) Performs a ritual using the Magic Rock of Forgiveness.
(3) Finds to their utter astonishment that they feel in a forgiving mood.

Wow! Your so-called "science" can't explain that, can it! Hallelujah! Praise the Magic Rock!

for I have beheld the Miracle Of The Bleedin' Obvious.

You forgot to mention that you must soak your healing crystal in saltwater to
neutralize it and rid it of its bad vibes...

(try and get your pseudoscience right from now on...)

 

[RandFan]

Sex is a sin? I always thought orgasms were divine.

So long as you don't waste any of the sperm.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

--Monty Python (duh, as if you had to ask)

I hope that clears that up.