How readily can political opinions change?

[Mycroft]

Maybe you'd care to view these links and tell me why the Israelis had to defend themselves against these babys?

I think a better question is why you take these sites at face value rather than looking at them with a critical eye.

NOGW.com is a woo-woo site with sections on the Illuminati, “media mind control”, and the ”shadow government.” Answering-christianity.com is a hard-core Islamist website whose purpose is to convert people to Islam. These are not credible sources.

 

[Mycroft]

Can you think of any striking examples?

Of particular interest would be cases where a traditionally right-wing opinion has shifted to the left. There's a cliche that one's opinions get more right wing with age, and in some instances I seem to be fulfilling the cliche (but then I was a bit of a lefty to begin with). Can it work in reverse?

I think most of the changes I’ve made have been from the left to the right.

On gun rights, I’ve shifted from centrist to a more pro-gun stance. I used to think the right to bear arms was the Constitutional right we could do without, I don’t think that way anymore.

On global warming, I’ve become more aware of the anti-global warming argument. I’m not really convinced it’s right, but I am convinced there is a certain amount of woo in the pro-global warming argument.

Overall, though, I’ve become a lot more aware of the nature of the radical left than I ever was before. Where I identify with the moderate near-centrist left, I’ve come to understand that the radical left is just completely out of touch with reality and doesn’t really speak for anyone but themselves. I’m talking about the neo-communists who run Indy-media sites and organize protests and are infested with woo woo conspiracy theories. The kind of people that idolize Che Guevara, deify Rachel Corrie, and form young socialist clubs.

 

[Mephisto]

I think a better question is why you take these sites at face value rather than looking at them with a critical eye.

Funny you should say "face value."

Then you think these aren't photos of dead children?

(edited to add) Interesting that we should take these photos at "face value," but Anne Coulter calling middle-easterners "Rag-Heads" is "just joking."

 

[Mycroft]

Funny you should say "face value."

Then you think these aren't photos of dead children?

Of course they are. What might be questioned is who they are, when they died, who killed them, and what were the events surrounding their deaths. It’s easy to get a gruesome picture and put a caption on it for propaganda purposes, but a skeptic wants provenance.

(edited to add) Interesting that we should take these photos at "face value," but Anne Coulter calling middle-easterners "Rag-Heads" is "just joking."

Are you claiming I once defended Anne Coulter in this way?

 

[Art Vandelay]

Maybe you'd care to view these links and tell me why the Israelis had to defend themselves against these babys?

Maybe you can tell me how a 10 year old Palestinian girl became a Palestinian leader (code name for terrorist) at such a young age?

So you're just going to post a bunch of strawmen?

How about stopping to admit that this violence is unproductive and should stop ASAP.

How about actually presenting some evidence.

So much for your "facts."

Which of my facts are contradicted? Are you you going to support your "facts"?

 

[epepke]

I think most of the changes I’ve made have been from the left to the right.

I think I've gone slightly to the left, but that was probably a correction that would have happened anyway.

Overall, though, I’ve become a lot more aware of the nature of the radical left than I ever was before. Where I identify with the moderate near-centrist left, I’ve come to understand that the radical left is just completely out of touch with reality and doesn’t really speak for anyone but themselves.

That's happened to me as well, or, rather, it solidified it. I had always been aware of it, but I thought it was a local phenomenon--Tallahassee is called the Berkeley of the South. I had seen some stuff on USENET, but back then, the culture was academia and government. Now that there are international fora like this one, which require little computer experience or specialized equipment to access, it is becoming more obvious to me how widespread this is. Whereas the nutso right is on AM radio every day, the nutso left does not have such a wide outlet.

 

[Mephisto]

How about stopping to admit that this violence is unproductive and should stop ASAP.

How about actually presenting some evidence.

. . . then you DO think the violence is productive?

 

[Mephisto]

Are you claiming I once defended Anne Coulter in this way?

No, certainly not, I think you have too much class for that, but some conservatives here have.

Maybe I'm just a wussy, but thinking "Raghead," or "Kike," or "Spic," or "Cracker," or "Sand-Negro" never occurs to me when I see bloody child that died violently. Of course, I'm not a comedian though so I could be wrong.

 

[Art Vandelay]

. . . then you DO think the violence is productive?

I think that killing terrorists is productive. Are you one of those people that think violence is never productive? You do realize that the entire concept of a justice system depends on violence, and without violence, people could commit crimes with impunity, right?

 

[Mephisto]

Are you one of those people that think violence is never productive?

No, not at all. As a matter of fact I can't think of anything more satisfying (and maybe even productive) than meeting you alone in the dark.

 

[Mephisto]

Getting back to the OP and Cyric's original question . . .

I'm sure you've paid attention to the antics here, Cynric and it's a fair example of how readily political opinions can change. Unfortunately, the Right in the US has "painted themselves into a corner" as changing your mind about anything political has now been labeled "flip-flopping."

It's basically a campaign tool that doesn't really have any use in the REAL world where your opinions SHOULD change the more you know and mature, both mentally and emotionally. Unfortunately, it locks some of the more pigheaded among us into a rut from which there is no escape.

It's not necessarily always negative, however, if your politcal views regarding the importation of exotic birds to your country have changed, or if you've decided that perhaps Winky Dinglewhopper shouldn't be County Clerk anymore GREAT, but when you embrace a political opinion that endorses torture and war, and using tanks on children, and making excuses for the continuation of violence in a "tit-for-tat" situation with no end in sight, you prove that you're not really thinking much at all.

 

[Mephisto]

But then the Israelis withdrew from Gaza, giving the PA just such an opportunity, and it promptly degenerated into violence. Then the Palestinians elected Hamas, and my opinion on the situation changed for good.

There is also a thread somewhere in the past where the pullout was discussed. I'm "on record" as saying that the pullout was an amazingly bold and gracious move on the part of the Israelis - and the first real concessions made in this war. The responsibility for the next concession fell squarely with the Palestinians, and we know the rest . . . The rabid rationalizations and almost psychotic "calls to violence" can be seen nearly everywhere you look.


Still, knowing how poor and uneducated and fanatically religous the Palestinians are (the Mexicans are the same only they're fanatically Catholic) I can't fault them for thinking it's in their best interest to vote in a group of thugs who think nothing of using force and weapons and terror to "defend" their homeland: after all, Americans voted for Bush.

 

[Mephisto]

So?

Has anyone else gone from right to left in an argument because of input in this forum? I'm somewhat of an anomaly as I'm far right on some issues, and far left on others, and maybe it somehow averages out. I'd like to think that most of us are (more or less) the same way - as I find it difficult to believe that anyone can be 100% liberal or conservative 100% of the time.

Of course, there are the extremists . . .

 

[BPSCG]

So I'm a "neo-con"? I thought supporting assisted suicide was generally thought to be a liberal position. Are you now saying it's a "neo-con" position? What do I think of "war and human life"?

Careful, you don't want to get on Mephisto's bad side. He favors torturing neocons' children.

Unfortunately, most of the neo-cons will never be in a situation where they'll watch a loved one tortured as their children aren't in the military, and they certainly aren't in the middle east on humanitarian missions.

(emphasis mine)

 

[Mephisto]

Careful, you don't want to get on Mephisto's bad side. He favors torturing neocons' children.

(emphasis mine)

Nice try, BPSCG - you'll notice I was implying that it's unfortunate that the children of rich neo-cons serve in neither the military or humanitarian missions so their parents unfortunately, won't ever know what it's like.

On the other hand, Art expressed genuine dismay that people can't see his view of Israelis in tanks as victims when being pelted by rock-throwing children. Just a bit of a difference, don't you think?

And speaking of Palestinian terrorists - are they also trying to kill you, or is it just the Al Qaeda variety?

 

[BPSCG]

Nice try, BPSCG - you'll notice I was implying that it's unfortunate that the children of rich neo-cons serve in neither the military or humanitarian missions so their parents unfortunately, won't ever know what it's like.

Emphasis mine. Won't know what what is like?

I offered you a chance to re-word what you'd originally written, and you came back with a smartass answer, so I assumed you stood by what you'd written. Which was:

Unfortunately, most of the neo-cons will never be in a situation where they'll watch a loved one tortured as their children aren't in the military, and they certainly aren't in the middle east on humanitarian missions.

 

[BPSCG]

And speaking of Palestinian terrorists - are they also trying to kill you

While I have little doubt they want me dead - how else should I interpret their cries of "Death to America" whenever a Danish magazine publishes cartoons drawn by a Dane? - I don't think they're doing much, if anything, to advance that worthy cause. I assume they do the mental calculus that they hate that bus full of Israeli school children as much as (or even more than) they do me, and conclude that they can murder those kids easier and cheaper than they can murder me.

But if the opportunity ever arose...

 

[Mephisto]

Emphasis mine. Won't know what what is like?

I offered you a chance to re-word what you'd originally written, and you came back with a smartass answer, so I assumed you stood by what you'd written. Which was:

Jeez, do we really have to go through this again, and on a different thread?

If you'll remember, the thread you took my quote from was about Jill Carroll being released. After many conservatives here (surprisingly, you WERE NOT one) had just finished blaming Jill Carroll for her captivity or chastising her for making favorable comments about her kidnappers. That is where my quote came in: that rich neo-con parents won't ever have to worry like Jill Carroll's parents did because their children are not in the military and not likely to be on humanitarian missions in Iraq. i.e. THEY WON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO WONDER IF THEIR CHILD WILL BE BRUTALLY TORTURED OR EXECUTED BY MUSLIM EXTREMISTS. Got it?

 

[Mephisto]

While I have little doubt they want me dead - how else should I interpret their cries of "Death to America" ...

Well, if you weren't so pathetically centrist - you COULD say they want to kill all Americans, the same as Al Qaeda terrorists.

Of course the big difference is; you work in a city that suffered an Al Qaeda attack and certainly the carnage was close to you. BUT, if that really, really bothers you THAT much; it seems to me you could easily pack up Mrs. BPSCG and all the little BPSCGs and move to Butte, Montana or Kiss My Sink, Idaho. Of course you'd have to give up your little bargaining chip as most people would get a hearty laugh out of anyone there claiming that Al Qaeda is actually trying to kill them in rural America.

 

[BPSCG]

That is where my quote came in: that rich neo-con parents won't ever have to worry like Jill Carroll's parents did because their children are not in the military and not likely to be on humanitarian missions in Iraq. i.e. THEY WON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO WONDER IF THEIR CHILD WILL BE BRUTALLY TORTURED OR EXECUTED BY MUSLIM EXTREMISTS. Got it?

That's not what you said originally.

Your original statement didn't say it was unfortunate that "rich neocon parents" wouldn't have to wonder if their child was being tortured (which would be bad enough). You said it was unfortunate that they would never see their children tortured. Period. Again:

Unfortunately, most of the neo-cons will never be in a situation where they'll watch a loved one tortured as their children aren't in the military, and they certainly aren't in the middle east on humanitarian missions.

Let's settle this once and for all: Tell me you don't approve of torturing rich neocons' children and I'll withdraw the accusation.

BTW, do you approve of Harvard and Yale Universities' prohibition of on-campus military recruiting? Seems to me kind of unfair to prohibit military recruiting on Ivy League campuses, then complain that the military doesn't have enough smart rich kids.