Ask your self this: Ae we better off with illegals in this country, or not?

[Iamme]

Did any of you happen to hear the interview on FOX last night with some (Mexican?) guest guy that went on a rant how we (companies, and the citizenry as a whole) actually cause the illegal influx, by creating this need for the illegal worker, to do the jobs none of us want..and how the person asking the questions could not get one word in edgewise!, and accused the talker of filibustering? The guest also claimed that as far as the Mexican constitution goes (if I heard right), the illegals have a right to try to come here. Did any of you see this (one sided) dialogue?

Considering the fact that they don't pay taxes, yet they somehow get in on the use of our services that U.S. taxpayers pay for...but also considering that they are helping keeping costs down in this country by doing work for cheap....and saving more companies from having to relocate jobs overseas, etc.,...

...are we better off with them, or without them?

 

[TragicMonkey]

You are mistaken about them not paying taxes. Maybe not income tax, but certainly sales tax.

I'd be interested in seeing some numbers of how much income tax the US is actually losing out on: do illegal immigrants command such high salaries that they'd be paying significant income tax? Or any? Social Security, certainly, which is taken regardless of annual income...but do illegal immigrants get Social Security benefits?

 

[Grammatron]

You are mistaken about them not paying taxes. Maybe not income tax, but certainly sales tax.

I'd be interested in seeing some numbers of how much income tax the US is actually losing out on: do illegal immigrants command such high salaries that they'd be paying significant income tax? Or any? Social Security, certainly, which is taken regardless of annual income...but do illegal immigrants get Social Security benefits?

Maybe not SS, but in California they get k-12 school and even tuition assistance at Univesities. I won't even mention medical.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

It's not tha US citizens don't want the jobs, many do. It's just illegal for us to take them.

 

[Bjorn]

It's not tha US citizens don't want the jobs, many do. It's just illegal for us to take them.

Care to explain?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Maybe not SS, but in California they get k-12 school and even tuition assistance at Univesities. I won't even mention medical.

I wasn't suggesting that they derive no benefits from the state that should (or should not, that is debatable) be reserved to citizens, merely that they do not receive all the benefits and evade all the penalties that legal residents enjoy and suffer, respectively.

 

[Random]

It's kind of amusing to watch the Republicans try to deal with the immigration question. They have a massive split between the Fortress America crowd that wants to prevent those dirty foreigners from setting foot on our sacred soil, and the corporations who want a large pool of cheap laborers who cannot vote. The isolationists represent the majority of the Republican base, but it is the wealthy industrialists who pay all the election year bills.

Circular firing squads. They're not just for Democrats anymore.

 

[pipelineaudio]

This depends a LOT on where you live

Here in arizona the school system is being forced by threat of fine by the federal government to educate illegal mexicans IN spanish, not in english as all legal immigrants learn.

After California's toughening of the laws, AZ has seen a pretty nasty shift over the last 10 years or so.

If your business, like mine, depended on blue collar workers, or sub 100,000$ a year income types, you are in deep Kim Chee. Our school system is wrecked, health care is WAY wrecked, with welfare and healthfare illegally stating on official documents that "citizenship status/legal standing is not a condsideration"

To be fair, our problems here really stem from lack of enforcement of existing laws, rather than needing any new ones

Even "vote pandering" which seems popular in other areas is not a problem here, as our hispanic citizens are as staunchly against "english second language education", and illegal immigration as anyone else (they are the first ones to suffer).

 

[pipelineaudio]

They have a massive split between the Fortress America crowd that wants to prevent those dirty foreigners from setting foot on our sacred soil, .

As the citizen of a "red state" though a democrat, I gotta say, I hear this claim by euronazi's and blame america/blame the joooooos type crowds a lot

I've never met one

I've yet to meet a republican who wants to keep foreigners out

I have met people who would like to keep criminals out

So many biggots LOVE to smear the immigrant issue and the illegal tresspasser issue together, in order to paint all of america with a broad brush as xenophobes and its just not true.

I wish the #@%@^%#@^% media would understand that there is a BIG, HUGE, GARGANTUAN difference between legal immigrant and Illegal immigrant

they love to stick them together

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

The jobs US citizens cannot take are the ones with below minimum wages and no physical protection.

 

[shecky]

It's all supply and demand. We demand a cheap and easy labor pool, and they supply.

In some ways, this issue is like the Wal Mart issue. The way Wal Mart forces us to buy their cheap products, illegal immigrants force us to exploit their labor. We just can't help ourselves.

The problem is that nobody wants to face the reality of the situation. We want workers, and by hook or by crook, we're gonna get them. The question is if the government is going to get in the way or not.

 

[Crazytree]

the IRS has been issuing Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers [ITINs] to illegals for YEARS. illegals pay billions of dollars a year in income tax.

I work in tax litigation and I just wanted to clarify that.

 

[shecky]

This is a good point. Certainly some illegal immigrants are paid under the table and don't pay income tax. These are probably among the most visible, the day laborers hustling work at home improvement centers and such.

However, given the nature of these types of jobs, even if this labor pool were filled with full fledged citizens, it seems unlikely they'd be paying income taxes either. People just aren't going to bother for someone likely to he hired for a matter of days or even hours.

 

[BPSCG]

A few random (not Random) observations:

• The claim that "they take jobs away from Americans" is ridiculous. Go by any day labor pickup site on Monday morning. The only faces you'll see there are hispanic (ooh, racial profiling - beat me up...). You can't take a job away from someone who isn't even trying to get that job. Ask Ray Nagin.
• It's interesting to read the claim that the illegals don't make enough here to have to pay income tax, while at the same time reading that they're here because they can make a lot more money than they can back home, and that they send a lot of the money back home to support the family there.
• Iamme writes of the claim that we "actually cause the illegal influx, by creating this need for the illegal worker" but that's only one side of the coin. The other side is that life is so rotten south of the Rio Grande, especially compared to the US, that people are willing to do almost anything to leave. Why isn't there a problem with illegal Canadians flooding our workforce? Okay, there are (mercifully*) not many Canadians to begin with, but the real reason is that Canada's standard of living is pretty comparable to the US, so there's no pressing reason for Jacques to wade across the St. Lawrence River to get work here. In short, you need both pull and push for an illegal worker problem - opportunities in the US pulling workers, and lack of opportunities in the worker's country pushing them. The solution isn't walls at the borders; it's better lives south of the border. We should be encouraging that. Maybe we should be shipping arms to rebels. Viva la revolucion!
• Story: Had a sewer line break in in our back yard a couple of years ago. Plumbers couldn't get a backhoe in there, so they hired day laborers to dig down to the break. It was almost ten feet down. At one point, it occurred to me: "These guys are in a strange country where they don't speak the language, digging sh!+ at the bottom of a trench almost ten feet deep, on a muggy day in June, for probably about fifty bucks a day, and they've concluded that even this is better than anything they have back home." The solution isn't to build a wall to keep them out, it's to fix what they have back home. And BTW, don't tell me hispanics are a bunch of lazy good-for-nothings living off welfare until you tell me how much you would charge to go to a strange country where you don't speak the language, digging sh!+ at the bottom of a trench almost ten feet deep, on a muggy day in June.
• I think the complexity involved in calculating the cost vs. benefits of illegals makes economic analysis of the issue impossible. Just for example: There is certainly a considerable cost of health care, especially in the border states. How much does that cost each taxpayer? That's probably fairly difficult to determine, since we don't know if Miguel Santos is an illegal when he goes to the clinic for his back injury (sustained while digging sh!+ at the bottom of a trench), or if he's actually a permanent resident - I don't think doctors ask to see your green card before they examine you. But what was the benefit to the taxpayer from having Miguel dig trenches for fifty dollars a day, as opposed to what a legal would charge? As compared to what a full-time employee (with benefits) of a plumbing contractor would charge? As compared to what a unionized full-time employee (with benefits) of a plumbing contractor would charge? I submit those calculations are impossible to do on a macroeconomic scale. And that's just one localized effect, that doesn't take into account the ripple effects. For example, if eleven million illegals were suddenly and permanently deported and replaced with higher-paid legal employees, what would that do to the cost of living? What would it do to the unemployment rate? Would restaurants charge more because their waiters and busboys were now making twice as much as before? Would you pay it? How many restaurants would close down? How many would stay open, but with fewer employees? You can't just remove eleven million people from the workforce and say, "There, problem fixed." There are far-reaching consequences.
• As always, the problem is difficult and complex, and as always, Congress wants the easy fix ("Let's build a wall!"), because the most effective fix - getting true economic opportunity south of the border - is too complex.
• *

 

[Zep]

But BPSCG... That solution means the USA has to involve itself necessarily in another country's internal affairs, and direct them such that the outcome there is good for the USA at home. Wouldn't that be messier and less appreciated than other solutions?

 

[Skeptic]

The really puzzling thing is that it seems better to be an illegal than a legal immigrant. You get to learn in your own language (no need to learn that stupid English legal immigrants must); you get medical services, education, and (recently) drivers' licenses. On the other hand, you get not to pay income tax; you are not dilligently watched to see if you are not violating your visa conditions like legal immigrant, since you have no visa; and with the occassional Amnesty program, you get more or less automatic permanent residence after while.

In fact, you are not even called an "illegal immigrant", but an "undocumented alien", as if you have every right to stay in the country and it's merely a beurocratic mishap that don't have the right immigration papers. And if you're one of the 0.1% or so who are deported, hey, no problem--just enter illegally again.

What the USA's policy is telling the world is that the easiest way to become an American, extremely difficult legally, is to (a) jump the fence, (b) wait for the inevitable Amnesty.

And the world is listening. This, I think, is the missing part of the equation, the part that's left out of the cost/benefit analysis. When you reward illegal behavior, you'll get a lot more of it.

 

[Just thinking]

... For example, if eleven million illegals were suddenly and permanently deported and replaced with higher-paid legal employees, what would that do to the cost of living? What would it do to the unemployment rate? Would restaurants charge more because their waiters and busboys were now making twice as much as before? Would you pay it? How many restaurants would close down? How many would stay open, but with fewer employees? ...

I have always wondered about this dynamic, as I have heard it repeated by many.

Does anyone know of a situation where prices have come down as a result of cheap(er) labor? I have a lawn service that over time has started incorporating a larger hispanic population (percentage wise). They have never lowered their rates -- in fact they have incresed over time at the same rate as if nothing happened. Have retail prices lowered in stores that hire illegals? Have restaurants lowered menu prices?

BPSCG, did the outfit that dug up your yard charge you any less than they would have otherwise had they not used illegals? (Did they say to you that since we're using these guys instead of the heavy expensive rigs, we're charging you less?) Is it possible to obtain quotes from those that do not have hispanic workers? (I understand that this might not even be remotely possible to do -- but the greater point is, did labor contracts to residential individuals such as yourself see a decline or even stagnation in prices for having work done? Remember, even if one uses the argument of higher material costs, some of those manufacturing facilities also hire illegals.)

My issue is, have we as individuals really seen much benefit from this cheap labor force, or is it only showing up on company leger books?

 

[BPSCG]

But BPSCG... That solution means the USA has to involve itself necessarily in another country's internal affairs, and direct them such that the outcome there is good for the USA at home. Wouldn't that be messier and less appreciated than other solutions?

What, are you suggesting we should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and make them all Christians instead...?

As I said, the real solution isn't easy, because the question isn't, "How do we keep people out of the US?" bit rather, how do our neighbors become prosperous? Much tougher question.

 

[BPSCG]

Does anyone know of a situation where prices have come down as a result of cheap(er) labor? I have a lawn service that over time has started incorporating a larger hispanic population (percentage wise). They have never lowered their rates -- in fact they have incresed over time at the same rate as if nothing happened.

Problem is, this is an experiment without a control - as is often the case with economic hypotheses. How does this compare with lawn services that have not hired increasing numbers of (illegal) hispanics?

Have retail prices lowered in stores that hire illegals? Have restaurants lowered menu prices?

Obviously not, but again, you don't have a control population to compare to. If half the restaurants in your town replaced all their illegals and the other half didn't, you'd have a meaningful comparison if the restaurants with legal employees raised their prices 15% over a year, while the rest raised their prices only 5%. Wages are a cost of doing business, just like rent, and in a truly free market environment, prices will reflect the costs of doing business.

BPSCG, did the outfit that dug up your yard charge you any less than they would have otherwise had they not used illegals? (Did they say to you that since we're using these guys instead of the heavy expensive rigs, we're charging you less?)

It would have cost me less if they could have gotten the backhoe into the back yard. But to answer the question you're really asking, no, they didn't say, "Hey, we're going to save you some money by using illegals; would you prefer to pay more for legals?", and I certainly didn't ask.

Is it possible to obtain quotes from those that do not have hispanic workers? (I understand that this might not even be remotely possible to do

Bingo. Actually, in some cases, it can be done; we had some landscaping done after the plumbing job (you wouldn't believe the wreckage the first plumber left before we fired him...don't get me started...) and a couple of the landscape companies made it a point to tell me they did no subcontracting, that all their employees were full-time, salaried, and, presumably, legal employees. Ditto when we had the windows replaced last year; of course, window installers need more skills than ditch-diggers, but the point remains that just because there are a bunch of guys crawling all over your house doesn't mean they're necessarily illegals.

-- but the greater point is, did labor contracts to residential individuals such as yourself see a decline or even stagnation in prices for having work done?

Don't follow.

My issue is, have we as individuals really seen much benefit from this cheap labor force, or is it only showing up on company leger books?

Almost certainly both. If lawn mowing service A is paying four times as much in wages as service B, and wages makes up half his cost of doing business, he's going to have to charge 25% more than B, all other factors being equal, to make the same profit. How long is he going to stay in business, at that rate?

 

[mgidm86]

But what was the benefit to the taxpayer from having Miguel dig trenches for fifty dollars a day, as opposed to what a legal would charge? As compared to what a full-time employee (with benefits) of a plumbing contractor would charge? As compared to what a unionized full-time employee (with benefits) of a plumbing contractor would charge? I submit those calculations are impossible to do on a macroeconomic scale.

Maybe you should ask the contractors, businesses and unions how they feel about losing work to these illegals?

As your example shows, agricultural jobs are not the only ones being taken by illegal aliens. Would you like an illegal worker doing the electrical work in your home? Would you worry less about your house burning down if you knew a qualified contractor with trained employees wired your circuit box instead? I know I would.

Would it cost more? Yes. There is, however, something to be said for doing things legally. Or is that not important when it comes to immigration?

Honest question....what is so difficult about coming to the United States from Mexico legally?