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Israeli Election Thread

webfusion said:
I'll help you out, OK? I know how tough it is for you Cleon, to actually provide evidence of anything
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Ironically, between the two of us I'm the only one who's provided any sort of evidence. You keep talking about all the analysts and indicators that supposedly agree with you, but you haven't substantiated a single one. You remind me of creationists that talk about all the scientists that agree with them, but somehow can't/won't name them and demand proof of evolution.

So either you're trolling, or your predictions are empty. Which is it?
 
Nice to see JREF offering "sponsored links" -- very useful.

I know I know, Z-N. The guy has a gift of being able to transform his posts of blatant nonsense into something magically delicious. He offered no evidence of anything relating to his naysaying ---- I made a minor mis-statement about aliyah (cleon said it is down overall, which seemed wrong, because I've read that it is up, but as I posted the details to back up my contention, I realized it was UP from the West only, not overall. So sue me.)

I specifically said that my time is too valuable to start posting links to various positive indicators, especially when they are all readily available to anybody with a quick google search. However, cleon, in the interests of keeping you honest (good luck to that) --
http://www1.cbs.gov.il/reader/imf/dsbbisr_new.htm
Print this out, and in six months' get back to us if you can show any of the various sectors and indicators listed have gone down.
I think not. The major financial institutions of the planet Earth think not. The American government thinks not. The European Union thinks not. The media thinks not. The Israeli unions think not. The Tel Aviv Stock Exchange thinks not.

Who, if I may ask, thinks that the Kadima-led government is problematic for the advancement and growth of Israel's economy and strengthening of the society? (even WITH Shas?!!)

Cleon, you should offer evidence that leads to a conclusion that there is a serious problem with Ehud Olmert or Kadima taking over. That's a real easy thing for you to present, I would imagine, yet, I've asked for it (five) times and you still don't reply. Why is that, Cleon?

Could it be that you have no evidence? Hmmmmm...
 
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webfusion said:
I know I know, Z-N. The guy has a gift of being able to transform his posts of blatant nonsense into something magically delicious. He offered no evidence of anything relating to his naysaying ----
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I went down this road already with Cleon, about a year ago. If you don't agree with him he flames you until you submit. When I refused to submit he eventually "put me on ignore".

You are just another poster to incur his wrath, you don't agree with him therefore he tells you that things are "a wee bit beyond your grasp", then when you refused to submit he says "you are either you're trolling, or your predictions are empty".

Just wanna give you a heads up.
 
PM to ZN

Z-N, you might consider another avatar, your current one kinda forced me to turn off the display of all avatars in my User CP! Here's an opportunity, it's April Fool's Day, find something appropriate to the theme... TIA. ( I would have PM'd you this minor personal request, but it's an unavailable option ).

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Cleon, my predictions are empty.
That make you feel better? Cool.
 
webfusion said:
Z-N, you might consider another avatar, your current one kinda forced me to turn off the display of all avatars in my User CP!
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Change my Avatar?...no way! :p

I find my avatar perfect since sometimes reading JREF makes me feel like Alexander de Large bound in a examination chair viddy-ing films at the Ludovico Centre.
 
Tick Tock Clock

I know exactly what you mean.

Don't forget to change your clocks ahead.
 
webfusion said:
Who, if I may ask, thinks that the Kadima-led government is problematic for the advancement and growth of Israel's economy and strengthening of the society? (even WITH Shas?!!)

Cleon, you should offer evidence that leads to a conclusion that there is a serious problem with Ehud Olmert or Kadima taking over. That's a real easy thing for you to present, I would imagine, yet, I've asked for it (five) times and you still don't reply. Why is that, Cleon?

Could it be that you have no evidence? Hmmmmm...
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So you made a grandiose claim and you want me to prove it wrong. Yeah, ok. Ho-hum.

BTW, I made none of the claims you attribute to me. But hey, have fun knocking down your strawmen. I'm done. We've established that your claims are hollow, without substance, and are nothing more than empty triumphalism. If that makes me "dishonest" to you, well, I'll just have to live with that. I don't know how I'll manage, but somehow, I'm sure I'll survive.
 
Cleon said:
So you made a grandiose claim and you want me to prove it wrong. Yeah, ok. Ho-hum.

BTW, I made none of the claims you attribute to me. But hey, have fun knocking down your strawmen. I'm done. We've established that your claims are hollow, without substance, and are nothing more than empty triumphalism. If that makes me "dishonest" to you, well, I'll just have to live with that. I don't know how I'll manage, but somehow, I'm sure I'll survive.
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Cleon, are you capable of sustaining any argument in the face of opposition?

This is all you ever do. Make an assertion, maybe follow it up with a few sarcastic remarks, then find an excuse to withdraw the moment someone challenges you.

It's easy to carry a sign surrounded by dozens of like-minded people.

It's easy to give a sound-bite to a reporter, who will only print what you say and not offer any critical opposition.

It's easy to write an editorial or an article for a leftist paper where you will never be confronted by those who disagree.

But can you ever stand toe-to-toe with a real person who disagrees with you?
 
Cleon's outta here. He has nothing.
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Interesting devlopment. Labor is presenting an alternative coalition arrangement to President Katzav. If Bibi Netanyahu will agree to obtain a guarantee of a good deal for the Likud, then the Prime Minister might be Amir Peretz.

Never a dull moment.
 
webfusion said:
Cleon's outta here. He has nothing.
=====================================

Interesting devlopment. Labor is presenting an alternative coalition arrangement to President Katzav. If Bibi Netanyahu will agree to obtain a guarantee of a good deal for the Likud, then the Prime Minister might be Amir Peretz.

Never a dull moment.
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A coalition of convenience for it's members only. Cleon sounds right on the money. The election has provided no clear winner, which means that no long term, strategic decisions will be made. It looks like it will be just be muddling along with more of the same, with the winner spending as much time hostage to the special interest groups it needs to retain it's hold on power. What odds even less Israeli's voting at the next election?
 
a_unique_person said:
A coalition of convenience for it's members only. Cleon sounds right on the money. The election has provided no clear winner, which means that no long term, strategic decisions will be made. It looks like it will be just be muddling along with more of the same, with the winner spending as much time hostage to the special interest groups it needs to retain it's hold on power. What odds even less Israeli's voting at the next election?
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No, I think Kadima is a clear winner here. I don't think any one party has ever had a majority in Israel's history, and nobody expected it this time either. However, the win for Kadima does mean business as usual--essentially a continuation of Sharon's policies.

The question is, does continuing those policies mean some sort of future substantially different from the current situation? I don't think there's a shred of evidence to suggest that this is the case. Since Olmert's position is to essentially ignore the Palestinians and do Israel's own thing with or without their cooperation, he's essentially letting the issue simmer, and he really doesn't have much in the way of domestic (i.e., non-Palestinian-related) issues. Peretz has already started seizing on that weakness, and you can expect he'll continue to do so. As the Russian/secular and Arab populations of Israel continue to grow, Labor is going to keep gaining influence based on that.

If another Intifada breaks out, which I think is unlikely, you'll see Labor lose influence while Kadima and the more right-wing parties (Likud, Shas, etc) pick up votes.
 
Cleon said:
No, I think Kadima is a clear winner here. I don't think any one party has ever had a majority in Israel's history, and nobody expected it this time either. However, the win for Kadima does mean business as usual--essentially a continuation of Sharon's policies.

The question is, does continuing those policies mean some sort of future substantially different from the current situation? I don't think there's a shred of evidence to suggest that this is the case. Since Olmert's position is to essentially ignore the Palestinians and do Israel's own thing with or without their cooperation, he's essentially letting the issue simmer, and he really doesn't have much in the way of domestic (i.e., non-Palestinian-related) issues. Peretz has already started seizing on that weakness, and you can expect he'll continue to do so. As the Russian/secular and Arab populations of Israel continue to grow, Labor is going to keep gaining influence based on that.

If another Intifada breaks out, which I think is unlikely, you'll see Labor lose influence while Kadima and the more right-wing parties (Likud, Shas, etc) pick up votes.
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Cleon you are wrong....you are just soooooo wrong.
All available indicators and informed opinions are saying you are clearly wrong....Please don't say I am making an unsupported claim as I will demand you support that claim by proving that my claimed indicators and expert opinions do not exist. Should you get frustrated I will claim you do not have what it takes to match me in debate....fair enough?

I win....on with the thread.
 
Cleon said:
No, I think Kadima is a clear winner here. I don't think any one party has ever had a majority in Israel's history, and nobody expected it this time either. However, the win for Kadima does mean business as usual--essentially a continuation of Sharon's policies.

The question is, does continuing those policies mean some sort of future substantially different from the current situation? I don't think there's a shred of evidence to suggest that this is the case. Since Olmert's position is to essentially ignore the Palestinians and do Israel's own thing with or without their cooperation, he's essentially letting the issue simmer, and he really doesn't have much in the way of domestic (i.e., non-Palestinian-related) issues. Peretz has already started seizing on that weakness, and you can expect he'll continue to do so. As the Russian/secular and Arab populations of Israel continue to grow, Labor is going to keep gaining influence based on that.

If another Intifada breaks out, which I think is unlikely, you'll see Labor lose influence while Kadima and the more right-wing parties (Likud, Shas, etc) pick up votes.
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Is it time for Israel to change it's voting system?
 
a_unique_person said:
Is it time for Israel to change it's voting system?
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Believe it or not, I have no serious problems with Israel's voting system--I actually wish we had that sort of parliamentary system in the US. Proportional representation might be at times chaotic, but IMO fundamentally it's more democratic than a winner-take-all system. (It's the whole "ethnic democracy," disrespecting human rights, and occupation thing I have problems with.) You can vote for the party that you feel best represents your interests without being a "spoiler," you don't have to hold your nose and vote for the "lesser of two evils," etc. It allows for people/parties to be true to principle and still have to struggle for compromise.

I fully admit that I'm completely unfamiliar with Australia's political system, so I have no comment on that score. ;)
 
The Fool said:
Cleon you are wrong....you are just soooooo wrong.
All available indicators and informed opinions are saying you are clearly wrong....Please don't say I am making an unsupported claim as I will demand you support that claim by proving that my claimed indicators and expert opinions do not exist. Should you get frustrated I will claim you do not have what it takes to match me in debate....fair enough?

I win....on with the thread.
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:D
 
Cleon said:
Believe it or not, I have no serious problems with Israel's voting system--I actually wish we had that sort of parliamentary system in the US. Proportional representation might be at times chaotic, but IMO fundamentally it's more democratic than a winner-take-all system. (It's the whole "ethnic democracy," disrespecting human rights, and occupation thing I have problems with.) You can vote for the party that you feel best represents your interests without being a "spoiler," you don't have to hold your nose and vote for the "lesser of two evils," etc. It allows for people/parties to be true to principle and still have to struggle for compromise.

I fully admit that I'm completely unfamiliar with Australia's political system, so I have no comment on that score. ;)
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Australia has a few systems, just to keep it interesting, depending on what State or section of the electorate you are talking about.

Eg, the Tasmanian state system has a very similar system, and there are endless complaints about how the Greens get too much influence, (although I think a lot of people believe any influence the Greens have is too much). It's good that small parties get a voice, bad in the sense that if something big needs to be done, it's harder to do it, since there is no clear majority. The systems that make one side or the other the clear power in control have that advantage, but the the corresponding disadvantage that smaller groups don't get a look in.

Israel has certain things to settle, once and for all. Olmert wants to do that, but, once again, sectional interests may stop it happening since he does not have the clear power in the Knesset to do so. Even though Israel gives people the power to vote for small parties, about 1/3 of the voters didnt' vote, and the pensioners party got the majority of it's votes from people under 30.

As Churchill said, Democracy is the worst of Political system, except for all the rest.
 
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