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"Roe v. Wade for Men"

In Australia at least it depends a great deal on the income of the father, and in some cases "child support" payments can greatly exceed the cost of raising a child.

In addition it's possible for a woman to divorce one man and receive child support, and then remarry and be a dependant spouse supported by a different man while still receiving child support from their first partner.

If it's the case in the USA that child support (plus any other applicable payments, such as welfare payments) never exceeds the cost of raising a child minimally decently, then I'll agree with you. I did not have the impression this was the case, but I'm interested in seeing any relevant evidence.

The US is similar. Child support is a formula (though its different in allstates ). It takes into account the incomes of the parents. Mostly its a function of the non custody parents income. So the more dad has the more he'll be paying. Dad who makes 20,000 is not going to pay the same amount as a guy who makes 50,000.



As for the mom who remarries. Why should that effect the child support. Its not the new husbands kid, why should he have to be financially responsible for another mans child?
 
No, that's absolutely not true. The ability to have an abortion gives women an explicit reproductive choice that men do not have.
But that's not what I said. I said that both men and women have the right to control their own sex organs.

What you're arguing, if I understand you, is that women have greater control of their reproductive choices; they can have sex without fear of reproductive consequences because they can continue to make choices well after conception, and men can't, and that's not fair.

Ok, so let's say, for the sake of argument, that I agree with you. You and I and the fine Maxim readers at the National Center for Men wage a campaign against inequality in reproductive rights, we band of brothers, and we win! Yay, so the new world order sets in, and now the standard for determining paternity for the purposes of child support is consent, not biological fatherhood. Great, so now everything is all good. Both men and women have the right to sex without reproductive consequences.

But wait, the women are angry! Men, they say, now have the right to sex without the risk of unwanted pregnancies, but women don't. Can't you see, they tell us, that this is in violation of the principle of equal protection under the law? They demand satisfaction! But there's no way we can make things fair for them, because that risk is just part of having sex. If they're really worried about it, maybe they should get their tubes tied. Oh, wait. Hrmm.

So this demonstrates a few things to me. First, that it's not really true that women have the right to sex without reproductive consequences. Second, that it's probably not a good idea to pluck rights out of thin air and then defend them; it makes more sense to argue for rights in reference to long-standing legal principles. And then the third thing I can't remember. Oh, that it wouldn't actually produce equal outcomes to introduce an opt-out for men, because there isn't really a consequence-free opt-out for women after she's knocked boots.

The attendant risks are much lower for women, since they have the option of terminating the pregnancy. The situation is not by any means equal.
Sure, if we look at financial risks in isolation, it isn't fair. But if we pull out a bit (har har!) and look at it in the context of all of the attendant risks and our legal system, it still looks like men are getting a good deal to me.

"Public good" is not the same thing as "personal choices." That said, I'd like to see some of the things you mention (e.g. tax deductions) eliminated for that very reason.
I can't even remember what this was about. But it's pretty clear that the public good sometimes supervenes on personal choices.

The government should not attempt to remedy biological inequalities for their own sake. It should attempt to remedy legal inequalities which stem from those biological inequalities. For example, the biological inequality of being in a wheelchair creates a legal inequality in the form of a violation of that person's right to equality of opportunity (which, while not mentioned specifically in the Constitution, is omnipresent in relevant case law). Equal protection demands that that legal inequality needs to be rectified by means such as the ADA.
But did this actually have anything to do with the constitutional right to equal protection? I mean, sure, maybe it was the guiding principle, but if equal protection really demanded the ADA, it seems like it wouldn't have been necessary to pass the ADA.

Anyhway, I don't actually think a legal inequality exists here. At worst, a moral inequality exists, and it's not really one that I think can be remedied by divorcing the responsibilities of fatherhood from the biological fact of fatherhood. Or at least, not without making things unequal in the other direction. We could shift financial responsibility away from both parents, but as Cain pointed out earlier, that would create a perverse incentive structure and we'd have an 'important government interest' in not doing this.

Sure it does -- it upholds equal protection. I can't stress enough how important that is to our society. You're also edging pretty close to supporting the logic which leads to things like modern-day eminent domain abuses. "For the public good" is not usually sufficient cause to curtail individual freedom.
Well, I think doing precisely nothing upholds equal protection, because the way things are now doesn't actually seem any worse to me than this future world being constructed. Discrimination is warranted in equal protection cases regarding gender when it is related to an important government interest, so it's kind of hard to avoid the public good argument here.
 
Could you imagine where we could go if moms n dads could physically mutilate the other?? What next....
I don't know whats next, but I can tell you that we already mutilate legally in this country....circumcision.....hey, but that's probably an entirely different thread all together :D
 
A woman cannot steal my sperm, get pregnant, and then claim child support payments. I had no choice. Consensual intercourse is another matter.
Ever seen the movie "Crush" with Carey Elwes and that one girl from....that one....movie. Oh for crying out lound.
 
No.



Tell that to almost any philosopher and they will say "So what?".

I don't care if its life has begun, I care whether it currently has the characteristics that make adult humans special in a moral sense.
No you can go ahead and say "so what" directly to me ;) I'm pretty sure Socrates was a pretty special guy...because of how he thought or what he did? Superficially, yes, but his thoughts and actions started when he was a baby, before he even left an imprint in history- was that baby not special? I think he was, and that baby had to come from somewhere, too- was he not special when he was in the womb? No? Tell that to his mom while she's pregnant with him and she'd probably toss a few greek obsenities your way and maybe throw a fist full of olives at you.

Besides, tell your idea of morality to almost any philosopher and they'll say "So what? Morality is relative"

"It is safe to say that no other superstition is so detrimental to growth, so enervating and paralyzing to the minds and hearts of the people, as the superstition of Morality."

-Emma Goldman, 20th Century Anarchist and Feminist
 
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No you can go ahead and say "so what" directly to me ;) I'm pretty sure Socrates was a pretty special guy...because of how he thought or what he did? Superficially, yes, but his thoughts and actions started when he was a baby, before he even left an imprint in history- was that baby not special?

No.

I think he was, and that baby had to come from somewhere, too- was he not special when he was in the womb? No?

No.

Tell that to his mom while she's pregnant with him and she'd probably toss a few greek obsenities your way and maybe throw a fist full of olives at you.

That is not a compelling argument.

Besides, tell your idea of morality to almost any philosopher and they'll say "So what? Morality is relative"

Not any of the ones I know. Moral relativism is dead in philosphical academia. If you staged an expedition you might just still be able to photograph a moral relativist in the wild in a sociology or religion department, but probably not in philosophy. The problem with it is that it's inherently self-contradictory.

"It is safe to say that no other superstition is so detrimental to growth, so enervating and paralyzing to the minds and hearts of the people, as the superstition of Morality."

-Emma Goldman, 20th Century Anarchist and Feminist

I don't know anything about Emma Goldman, but even so I think it would be a fairly safe bet that you are taking her words wildly out of context.

To Tmy:

The US is similar. Child support is a formula (though its different in allstates ). It takes into account the incomes of the parents. Mostly its a function of the non custody parents income. So the more dad has the more he'll be paying. Dad who makes 20,000 is not going to pay the same amount as a guy who makes 50,000.

It's a good idea to an extent, but past a certain point it is no longer "child support", despite the name, it's "free money for a mother". If "child support" significantly exceeds the actual cost of raising a child then there is an incentive to get pregnant by a rich man, by hook or by crook, since even if you can't land the man permanently you still get a kid and an income you don't have to work for.

As for the mom who remarries. Why should that effect the child support. Its not the new husbands kid, why should he have to be financially responsible for another mans child?

Some people actually enjoy spending time with their kids, adopted or otherwise.

Some men end up in the unfortunate position of not being allowed to be with their children even though they are paying child support, while someone who doesn't have to pay for their upkeep gets the experience of raising them and being a father to them.

The stereotypical "deadbeat dad" doesn't care, but most fathers do care about their children and do want to be with them.
 
By the same token, no, the law can't give men the biological ability to get pregnant, or have an abortion. But it can still do the same as the above: try to level the playing field by giving them access to the same types of privileges that pregnant women have. One of those privileges includes the ability to opt out of parental responsibility.
Again, so very clinical. But, as has been pointed out, your proposal doesn't level the playing field at all. Women may have an extra option, but they also have extra risks and extra respionsibilities that men simply do not have. You want to give men all of the options without any of the risks or responsibilities. How is that equal protection?
 
Again, so very clinical. But, as has been pointed out, your proposal doesn't level the playing field at all. Women may have an extra option, but they also have extra risks and extra respionsibilities that men simply do not have. You want to give men all of the options without any of the risks or responsibilities. How is that equal protection?

To be more accurate, women can choose to undergo risks and responsibilities that men cannot choose to undergo.

This silly "so clinical" business should stop, by the way. It's a mere appeal to emotion, and what is worse is that it is a loaded, one-sided one. Many men don't want a pregnancy they helped begin to be aborted. Women still have the last word on whether or not an abortion will take place though, as they should. Is that "so clinical"? If it is "clinical" to say that you shouldn't necessarily get legal rights to go along with any desire you have, especially a desire that bites into other people's lives or wallets, then I am very much in favour of the law being "clinical".
 
To be more accurate, women can choose to undergo risks and responsibilities that men cannot choose to undergo.

This silly "so clinical" business should stop, by the way. It's a mere appeal to emotion, and what is worse is that it is a loaded, one-sided one. Many men don't want a pregnancy they helped begin to be aborted. Women still have the last word on whether or not an abortion will take place though, as they should. Is that "so clinical"? If it is "clinical" to say that you shouldn't necessarily get legal rights to go along with any desire you have, especially a desire that bites into other people's lives or wallets, then I am very much in favour of the law being "clinical".
Could somebody please tell me whats so wrong with emotion? Emotion is what makes pure objectivity a fantasy, and emotion is IMPOSSIBLE to get rid of. Emotion is what perpetuates this damn forum, right? Am I wrong? And by the way, I'd like to see where you get the idea that relativity, or moral relativity is dead. Don't know Emma Goldman? Dude, you're missing out, she's the ◊◊◊◊!

So anyway- how do men help begin abortions?
 
Could somebody please tell me whats so wrong with emotion? Emotion is what makes pure objectivity a fantasy, and emotion is IMPOSSIBLE to get rid of. Emotion is what perpetuates this damn forum, right? Am I wrong?

Yes. You left out all the other things that perpetuate this forum, including rationality.

And by the way, I'd like to see where you get the idea that relativity, or moral relativity is dead.

It's internally contradictory and morally repugnant to boot.

Don't know Emma Goldman? Dude, you're missing out, she's the ◊◊◊◊!

After a quick look at the wikipedia, she seems like an interesting person but at the same time she held an awful lot of moral ideas. So I think my original suspicion that you were quoting her out of context has been borne out.

So anyway- how do men help begin abortions?

You parsed that sentence wrong.
 
It's internally contradictory and morally repugnant to boot.
Have we worked out an internally consistent system of objective morality yet, that doesn't lead to absurd results? If so, I haven't heard about it.

The idea that moral relativism is "morally repugnant" begs the question in favor of moral objectivism. If moral relativism is in fact true, then it isn't morally repugnant.

Chris wrote:
Don't know Emma Goldman? Dude, you're missing out, she's the ◊◊◊◊!

I've never heard of her either, but I can tell from your signature line that her ideas about law were based on misunderstanding and ignorance (as is generally the case with self-described "anarchists"). The law is emphatically not static; its ability to respond to and sometimes guide changing social conditions makes our (relatively, even under Bush) free and enlightened society possible. Much of the social progress of the twentieth century took place in the realm of law, not just in response to changing social conditions but sometimes in anticipation of them (Brown v. Board of Education being an excellent example of a paradigm shift in which the law was on the leading edge of social change). If Ms. Goldman thought that her feminist ideals could be better realized in an anarchic state of nature, she was incredibly naive about the capacity of humankind to live together without a central authority regulating behavior.
 
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To Tmy:



It's a good idea to an extent, but past a certain point it is no longer "child support", despite the name, it's "free money for a mother". If "child support" significantly exceeds the actual cost of raising a child then there is an incentive to get pregnant by a rich man, by hook or by crook, since even if you can't land the man permanently you still get a kid and an income you don't have to work for.



Some people actually enjoy spending time with their kids, adopted or otherwise.

Some men end up in the unfortunate position of not being allowed to be with their children even though they are paying child support, while someone who doesn't have to pay for their upkeep gets the experience of raising them and being a father to them.

The stereotypical "deadbeat dad" doesn't care, but most fathers do care about their children and do want to be with them.

Child support and visitation are 2 separate things. You dont pay to see your kids. Even a pauper still has visits.

Yeah there can be times where rich guy gets screwed when he knocks up some golddigger. But thats not your regular situation.

As for paying for upkeep. Say you pay $200 a week. Could you live off of $200 a week?
 
Yes. You left out all the other things that perpetuate this forum, including rationality.



It's internally contradictory and morally repugnant to boot.



After a quick look at the wikipedia, she seems like an interesting person but at the same time she held an awful lot of moral ideas. So I think my original suspicion that you were quoting her out of context has been borne out.



You parsed that sentence wrong.
I'm sorry, but its impossible to rationalize without emotion, even if its just a little bit because we're humans. What I meant by emotion perpetuating this list- most of the time I see people defending their stance or what have you- you can't do that without emoting and you certainly can't see something from someone else's perspective without relativism, and you can't enter into that without emotion either.

I belive Goldman was talking about "legislated morality" as a bad thing, just like how in the eighteenth century it wasn't "immoral" to own slaves, that sort of thing. Or how dropping a couple H bombs on Heroshima was the only "moral" thing to do in response to their attack on us....
 
If Ms. Goldman thought that her feminist ideals could be better realized in an anarchic state of nature, she was incredibly naive about the capacity of humankind to live together without a central authority regulating behavior.

JD- I totally understand what you're saying- with the world's population the way it is, there's no way we can escape stratification or government- Anarchy is just a very fascinating ideal and, beleive it or not, I reqally do think Humans have the potential to make it work, POTENTIAL :) Its an extremely radical ideal, and it is something in the heart of almost every person that stood up for change in the face of adversity. It was one of the seeds that birthed this very nation, that birthed many democratic nations all over the world.
 
Have we worked out an internally consistent system of objective morality yet, that doesn't lead to absurd results? If so, I haven't heard about it.

No, but moral relativism collapses completely at the first hurdle. It's not even in the running.

The idea that moral relativism is "morally repugnant" begs the question in favor of moral objectivism. If moral relativism is in fact true, then it isn't morally repugnant.

Then it is handy that it is also self-contradictory, and thus cannot be true, isn't it?

Child support and visitation are 2 separate things. You dont pay to see your kids. Even a pauper still has visits.

It's part of the total package of obligations each way that is arranged after a relationship breaks up.

Yeah there can be times where rich guy gets screwed when he knocks up some golddigger. But thats not your regular situation.

Innocent people being convicted of murder isn't your regular situation either, but it is a bit of a problem if your justice system knowingly does it.

As for paying for upkeep. Say you pay $200 a week. Could you live off of $200 a week?

Yes, easily. I've lived on less, in Australian currency, in a place with higher rents than the area in which I am now living.

Unemployment and student payments are, last time I heard, around $180 per week and lots of people live on that even in the cities.

Granted I did not have a kid, but then again I could presumably get child support and unemployment benefits in addition if I did have a kid.

I'm sorry, but its impossible to rationalize without emotion, even if its just a little bit because we're humans. What I meant by emotion perpetuating this list- most of the time I see people defending their stance or what have you- you can't do that without emoting and you certainly can't see something from someone else's perspective without relativism, and you can't enter into that without emotion either.

Sorry, I've lost track of what your point was. How is this an argument against the logical fallaciousness of appeals to emotion now?
 
No, but moral relativism collapses completely at the first hurdle. It's not even in the running.
Can you elaborate on that?

1. What exactly do you mean by "moral relativism"?
2. What is the first hurdle at which it collapses? How does it collapse?
3. How is moral relativism self-contradictory?
 
Can you elaborate on that?

1. What exactly do you mean by "moral relativism"?
2. What is the first hurdle at which it collapses? How does it collapse?
3. How is moral relativism self-contradictory?

If this goes on too long we should probably split it off into another thread, but let's see how it goes for now.

Moral relativism is the idea that what is moral depends on the beliefs and/or culture of the actor. The main problems with this idea are that it defines moral progress out of existence (freeing slaves was not in fact moral under this scheme, because slavery was culturally accepted), and it defines itself out of existence in cultures which do not believe in moral relativism. Thus it is self-contradictory because it holds that it would be moral for cultures which do not believe in moral relativism to stamp out moral relativism.

By contrast absolutist moral theories tend to have the problem that by creating sufficiently odd situations you can get them to generate counterintuitive or absurd results, but they usually do reasonably well under normal circumstances. They don't explode as soon as they contact reality like moral relativism does.
 
To be more accurate, women can choose to undergo risks and responsibilities that men cannot choose to undergo.
If they can choose the extra risks and responsibilities, they do it at the same time the men do - when they decide to have sex that may lead to pregnancy. Once she is pregnant, those extra risks and responsibilities are in place.

This silly "so clinical" business should stop, by the way. It's a mere appeal to emotion, and what is worse is that it is a loaded, one-sided one. Many men don't want a pregnancy they helped begin to be aborted. Women still have the last word on whether or not an abortion will take place though, as they should. Is that "so clinical"?
When you phrase it in such a way as to make it seem all she has to do is check a box on a form (essentially what is advocated for men) then yes, it is so clinical. And ignoring the very real emotional aspects of the decision.

If it is "clinical" to say that you shouldn't necessarily get legal rights to go along with any desire you have, especially a desire that bites into other people's lives or wallets, then I am very much in favour of the law being "clinical".
Then I guess you must be against giving men the legal right to terminate child support in accordance with whatever desires they have, as that would bite into both the mother and child's lives and wallets.
 
If they can choose the extra risks and responsibilities, they do it at the same time the men do - when they decide to have sex that may lead to pregnancy. Once she is pregnant, those extra risks and responsibilities are in place.

Assuming that the "abortion pill" and abortions are available, women do not have to undergo the risks and responsibilities of a complete pregnancy unless they choose to.

When you phrase it in such a way as to make it seem all she has to do is check a box on a form (essentially what is advocated for men) then yes, it is so clinical. And ignoring the very real emotional aspects of the decision.

I'll just repeat myself, since you are just repeating yourself. Firstly even if you do feel strongly about something, that doesn't give you any right to exercise control over other people's lives or property. Secondly, your argument is one-sided and manipulative because it encourages us to empathise with only one person in the situation, the woman. The men involved in these situations have emotions too, and they too should not get any special rights to control other people's lives or finances as a result.

Then I guess you must be against giving men the legal right to terminate child support in accordance with whatever desires they have, as that would bite into both the mother and child's lives and wallets.

That doesn't follow at all.

As I have said repeatedly I am in favour of men having the legal right to terminate all obligations (and privileges) relating to a given pregnancy as long as they do so in a sufficiently timely fashion that the woman involved can make an informed choice to keep the pregnancy or not.

If a man commits to help support a child, and the child is out and about in the world, then I am not at all in favour of him being able to arbitrarily terminate his obligations and privileges regarding that child.
 
As I have said repeatedly I am in favour of men having the legal right to terminate all obligations (and privileges) relating to a given pregnancy as long as they do so in a sufficiently timely fashion that the woman involved can make an informed choice to keep the pregnancy or not.
.

What if the woman doesn't discover she's pregnant until the 4th or 5th month? Some 30% of all women experience irregular periods. Many many women don't realize they're pregnant until the 2nd trimester or even later.

Do you think the man should still get his decision period in that situation?

Meg
 

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