Its not a civil war...

As for Mr. Allawi? He can say what he likes. His opinon does not make one shred of difference in regard to my post. There simply is no civil war if the factions that make up the recognised govenment do not splinter and begin fighting each other. Since this has not yet happened Mr. Allawi's opinion is not bolstered by facts whereas mine is.
I wouldn't call what we have in Iraq i civil war yet, but you're wrong about what a civil war is. A civil war is simply "A war between factions or regions of the same country." (dictionary.com) An uprising against the governement is just as much of a civil war as an armed conflict within it.
 
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I wouldn't call what we have in Iraq i civil war yet, but you're wrong about what a civil war is. A civil war is simply "A war between factions or regions of the same country." (dictionary.com) An uprising against the governement is just as much of a civil war as an armed conflict within it.

That definition does nothing though to convey the changes going on in Iraq now. Per that pedantic and narrow definition there has been civil war in Iraq for the last 3 years. Also there has been civil war in Afghanistan, in Palestine, in Spain, in Peru, in Pakistan....etc....etc....etc....

All these places and more conform to the narrow definition you found. However; a proper civil war tends to dissolve or splinter the government into warring factions. Since the government in Baghdad is still talking to each other and not out leading their factions in battle against each other I'd say the re-packaging of Iraq as a nation sundered by civil war is at best premature.

I find it interesting that the insurgency has changed it's primary focus from fighting the US forces to fomenting sectarian violence. These guys aren't dumb. They know they're more likely to have success driving a wedge between the ethnic and religious groups in Iraq than they would at driving out the coalition. The confusion and destruction of a civil war would work well for AQ.

But the Iraqi leadership is also smart enough to know they're being manipulated into civil war. They've already shown an amazing amount of professionalism and restraint.

They deserve credit and support from us instead of having the insurgency repackaged as a hopeless case of civil war and sold as such to the American people and the west in general. Allowing this bit of disinformation to pass unchallenged is nothing less than a credulous acceptance of Zarqawi's overt attempts to change the battlefield dynamic. And why would he want to change it in the first place if he were winning? He wouldn't.

So now he's targeting the Iraqi government along it's ethnic and religious fault lines. Civil war is the goal...not the reality as of this date.

-z
 
I find it interesting, whether or not there will be a civil-war, that this Administration seems to be continuing to execute a plan conceived of before the invasion and seemingly heedless of what is happening on the ground. The insurgents/terrorists tactics and possibly even their goals are evolving. The situation on the ground appears to be deteriorating (unless you believe in the media is hiding the real good news strategy), conditions for the population are abysmal, the impetus to form a civil society seems to be on a precipice, but Bush continues to follow his "Strategy for Victory" even though he can't quite explain what that is.

I don't know what the solution is...the intransigence of Bush and the Administration and the seemingly clear break between the reality on the ground and their vision of what is happening seems so great, and seems to have cut off options rather than expand possibilities.

Whatever it is, the guys who got us here have screwed up...I think you have to admit it even if you buy their "vision" of what they were trying to do, as well as their rationalizations and post-hoc explanations of what we are doing there. It seems to me that if you drive the car into the tree, again and again, that at some point you should stop driving the car, or at the very least rethink your direction. But here we are, the tree is looming right in front of him, but Bush keeps looking at the same map and saying: the tree isn't there and even if the tree is there, I can drive through it.

The problem is, we're stuck with him. He is incompetent. Worse still, I actually think he believes what he is saying.
 
I find it interesting, whether or not there will be a civil-war, that this Administration seems to be continuing to execute a plan conceived of before the invasion and seemingly heedless of what is happening on the ground. The insurgents/terrorists tactics and possibly even their goals are evolving. The situation on the ground appears to be deteriorating (unless you believe in the media is hiding the real good news strategy), conditions for the population are abysmal, the impetus to form a civil society seems to be on a precipice, but Bush continues to follow his "Strategy for Victory" even though he can't quite explain what that is.

I don't know what the solution is...the intransigence of Bush and the Administration and the seemingly clear break between the reality on the ground and their vision of what is happening seems so great, and seems to have cut off options rather than expand possibilities.

Whatever it is, the guys who got us here have screwed up...I think you have to admit it even if you buy their "vision" of what they were trying to do, as well as their rationalizations and post-hoc explanations of what we are doing there. It seems to me that if you drive the car into the tree, again and again, that at some point you should stop driving the car, or at the very least rethink your direction. But here we are, the tree is looming right in front of him, but Bush keeps looking at the same map and saying: the tree isn't there and even if the tree is there, I can drive through it.

The problem is, we're stuck with him. He is incompetent. Worse still, I actually think he believes what he is saying.

This is all well and good. Your assessment has some merit to me...but is rife with the same old problem; lots of criticism and no proposed solution. Fact is the tree needs to be uprooted. To use your analogy; Bush may eventually succeed in taking it down with his crude method as long as the car keeps running.

The fact that he has a second-rate plan still trumps the fact that the Dems have no better plan. Which is a pretty good reason why GWB is still running things instead of enjoying early retirement.

-z
 
Not sure I buy the conclusion.

The Administration has been so wrong and so incompetent about so much, that it's second rate plan is beginning to look a lot like no plan too -- welll, with the excpetion of "trust me, Rumsfeld is doing a fine job..."

I am not really clear what the distinction is any more...a bad plan that fails to take into account not only the history of the operation but the conditions on the ground or "no plan"...it really looks about the same to me.

However, I acknowledge that we are stuck with Bush for two more years...I believe the Republic will survive him. You, I think, secretely think he's a Churchill or Lincoln. I think he is Nicholas II. As Rummy says, history will tell.
 
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headscratcher4 wrote:
...It seems to me that if you drive the car into the tree, again and again, that at some point you should stop driving the car, or at the very least rethink your direction....
I like this analogy. A lot of people think we should just go around the tree but Bushco says that path is too dangerous. A lot more people think we shouldn't have been going down this road in the first place. Bushco acknowledges that most of the reasons given for going down the road initially weren't correct but claims it was still a good thing we're going down this road. Some people think that the tree might have fallen over already if Bushco had anybody that knew how to drive.

So Bushco just keeps backing up the car and driving it into the tree hoping that it will fall down. A lot of people are skeptical that the tree is going to fall down and within a year or two if the tree hasn't fallen down we're going to stop driving the car into the tree regardless of what Bushco says, but for the next year or two Bushco is going to keep driving the car into the tree.

I wonder how much longer the British are going to keep help us drive the car into the tree.
 
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So Bushco just keeps backing up the car and driving it into the tree hoping that it will fall down
Man, you tree huggers just don't get it ;)

We made a decision to drive into the tree, it was good decision. We are better off without that tree. We will not cut and run. We will not stop driving into the tree until the tree has fallen. Driving around the tree will send the wrong message to the other trees. We are resolute, we are steadfast in our beliefs.

Why do you support the trees?
 
I find it interesting, whether or not there will be a civil-war, that this Administration seems to be continuing to execute a plan conceived of before the invasion and seemingly heedless of what is happening on the ground.

Note that this is only what SEEMS to be the case to you, because the press has never really been interested in talking about what our strategies have actually been, or how things changed over time. And so the meme that Bush won't change course despite changing circumstances somehow got set in stone, and never really examined. But do you even remember who Bush put in charge of Iraq after the invasion? Hint: it wasn't Bremmer. Bremmer was brought in after the first guy wasn't accomplishing what Bush wanted done. I'm not saying that Bush didn't make some big screwups: I'm saying that this perception that he never changes course was false to begin with, though I'll agree he doesn't try hard to change that perception.

The insurgents/terrorists tactics and possibly even their goals are evolving.

Damn straight their goals are evolving, because their early goals have proven completely fruitless. Won't see much coverage of that, though. As to tactics, yes, their tactics have changed. So have ours. But again, the press is so woefully ignorant about military issues, and so uninterested in understanding them, that they aren't going to talk about how our tactics have changed too. Fortunately there's an upside to that: the insurgents get less information about how we operate.

But consider this too: in this kind of war, what tactics work best are often discovered by those actually doing the fighting. Now, who has a greater survival rate from engaging the enemy: the terrorists or US troops? The latter, by a huge margin. Who, then, is better positioned to accumulate such hard-earned experience? US troops. Who operates in an environment with open lines of communication across the force structure in order to propagate such information widely and thoroughly, and who has the resources to train with such new techniques to adapt them quickly and effectively? Again, US troops. When you talk about adapting, but you only talk about the enemy adapting, you're missing more than half the picture.

And finally, there are differences now compared to even a year ago which aren't so much due to any decision to change course but the ability to do things now which we simply could not do before. The shift from hunt and destroy missions to clear and hold missions in the Sunni triangle, for example, was made possible by the emergence of new Iraqi security forces, and those forces couldn't be conjured up instantly. They took time to develop. But now that they ARE a major factor in this war, they really are making a difference. And that was always a capability we'd just need to wait for. Similarly, we still have to wait before these units have a sufficient body of officers who have been tested and found effective before they can operate completely autonomously, because it takes longer to develop and test leadership skills than it does to train for combat.

The situation on the ground appears to be deteriorating (unless you believe in the media is hiding the real good news strategy),

How do you figure? I've been hearing THAT complaint for over two years now, and on occasion it's been true, but I see no signs of that being the case overall.

conditions for the population are abysmal,

And were abysmal to begin with. We just didn't see how bad things were (Thank you, CNN, for selling out your coverage to Saddam in order to maintain access which you couldn't even use to tell the truth). The question is not how bad things are, but what direction they're moving. And that direction, though it's been slower than I'd like, has still mostly been up.

the impetus to form a civil society seems to be on a precipice,

Again, this is one of those things I've been hearing critics complain about since the beginning. What's worse now?
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060323...riYgE.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-

At Lest 56 Dead in New Iraqi Violence....

Of course, this isn't anything new, it is just the SOS. So everything is copesetic.

Wow. This isn't anything new, you say? You really can't see what's right under your nose, can you? Read that article once more. This time, pay a little closer attention to who is fighting the terrorists, and what role the US is playing. There were seven instances of terrorists attacking security forces in that article. Six of them involved NO coalition troops, and the one that DID involve coalition troops started as an attack against an Iraqi police station that was turned back by both US AND Iraqi troops. Complain all you want to about violence persisting, but if you really can't understand how fundamental that shift is compared to even one year ago, and how important that shift is for the long-term course of this conflict, you really have blindfolded yourself.

And ask yourself this, too: even though this massive fundamental shift is quite evident from the stories when you pay attention to it, why isn't that fact being discussed in detail by the press? Isn't that a pretty damned big news story itself?

Thank god we live in George Bush's America.

Thank god some people are paying attention to more than just George Bush.
 
This time, pay a little closer attention to who is fighting the terrorists, and what role the US is playing. There were seven instances of terrorists attacking security forces in that article. Six of them involved NO coalition troops, and the one that DID involve coalition troops started as an attack against an Iraqi police station that was turned back by both US AND Iraqi troops. Complain all you want to about violence persisting, but if you really can't understand how fundamental that shift is compared to even one year ago, and how important that shift is for the long-term course of this conflict, you really have blindfolded yourself.
I have two observations:

1) I find it extremely interesting that you have used the word "terrorists" in your description of the article although that word was not used at all in the article itself. You have also used the phrase "coalition forces" when the article used the phrase "U.S. forces" exclusively.

2) You have made a very good point about these attacks not being against U.S. forces. However, the fact that we're now seeing an increase in Iraqi-on- Iraqi violence sems to bolster the civil war claims, not to debunk them.
 
I have two observations:

1) I find it extremely interesting that you have used the word "terrorists" in your description of the article although that word was not used at all in the article itself. You have also used the phrase "coalition forces" when the article used the phrase "U.S. forces" exclusively.

Not to mention the fact that if they are attacking military targets, they are not, by definition, terrorists.

2) You have made a very good point about these attacks not being against U.S. forces. However, the fact that we're now seeing an increase in Iraqi-on- Iraqi violence sems to bolster the civil war claims, not to debunk them.

Just add the proper amount of spin, and voila! Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence becomes evidence that the situation is stabilizing!
 
To go with my/Headscrather's analogy a little farther.

If the tree doesn't fall over in a year or two and we stop backing up and driving into it, some people will say the fact that the tree didn't fall over is proof that we should have never attempted to knock the tree over by driving into it in the first place and other people (Ziggurat perhaps) will say that the fact that the tree didn't fall over is proof that the naysayers were wrong and that the only reason the tree didn't fall over was because we stopped backing up and running into it.
 
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1) I find it extremely interesting that you have used the word "terrorists" in your description of the article although that word was not used at all in the article itself.

Yes, though I'm not sure what significance you attach to that. The AP is notoriously reluctant to actually use the term "terrorist", regardless of the context, unless they're quoting someone. I'm less reluctant to make such judgments.

You have also used the phrase "coalition forces" when the article used the phrase "U.S. forces" exclusively.

Yes, that is true. I presume the important distinction most people would draw is between Iraqi forces and coalition forces (since British troops serve essentially the same function as American troops), so I decided to use the broader term. If the incident involving US troops had instead involved British troops (for example), the effect would still have been the same (an operation which was not solely Iraqi). Had a British unit been involved instead, and I claimed that no US troops were involved in any of the operations, you would have likely called me on leaving them out, and rightly so. So I used the broader term "coalition forces" to make the conversation more general. This may have been an unnecessary generalization given the particular article, but I don't think you actually object.

2) You have made a very good point about these attacks not being against U.S. forces. However, the fact that we're now seeing an increase in Iraqi-on- Iraqi violence sems to bolster the civil war claims, not to debunk them.

That just gets back to how you want to define a civil war. The American civil war was undoubtably a civil war, but what about the Troubles in Northern Ireland? I would say no, that doesn't meet the definition. How about terrorist activity in the Philippines? They arguably hold actual territory there, but I would still say no. And it's not just a matter of success or failure either: even a bloody and successful coup is not the same thing as a civil war. In order to call something a civil war (and not just an insurgency, for example), I think you need more than just one group of people fighting against another. I think you need things like clear dividing lines between the groups (not present here - plenty of Sunnis don't support the insurgency), you need rival governments (the terrorists don't have one), and you need opposing sides to actually field large numbers of combatants (the insurgency can't field more than about 100 people at any place and time, and rarely even that).

Why do I insist on this kind of narrower definition? Because I think the term "civil war" call to mind consequences of such magnitude (such as the country being ripped apart) that they don't occur without the conflict matching the sort of criteria I laid out. If you accept my criteria, then the conclusion is clearly that Iraq is NOT in a civil war right now (and has not been at any point since our invasion). Whether or not it's getting closer TO civil war is, of course, a more debatable question, but even there, I don't see it as being any closer now than, say, in 2004.
 
Just add the proper amount of spin, and voila! Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence becomes evidence that the situation is stabilizing!

Just add the proper amount of spin, and voila! you imply I said something I never said.

My response was not about the situation stabilizing, it was about the situation CHANGING in a fundamental way. headscratcher4 said "Of course, this isn't anything new, it is just the SOS" and I pointed out that it was indeed something new. But hey, if you don't have any response to what I actually said, just spin!
 
The fact that he has a second-rate plan still trumps the fact that the Dems have no better plan. Which is a pretty good reason why GWB is still running things instead of enjoying early retirement.

-z

I love the logic that says 'well, if you don't like our plan, why don't you try the other guys' plan?' All it shows is that the Republican plan is a failure, always has been a failure, and will continue to be a failure and now they're trying to shift blame and instead stand up and try to fix their failure. It's a nice way of evading the question, nothing more.

Also, this doesn't excuse the shoddiness of the plan. Bush had from 9/12/2001 until 3/2003 in order to come up with an Iraqi Invasion plan. If he couldn't get the best minds in America to come up with a decent after-war plan, then that's his failure and has nothing to do with the Democrats. If you want to blame anything, go ahead and blame the people who got us into this new Vietnam in the first place.
 
Not to mention the fact that if they are attacking military targets, they are not, by definition, terrorists.

So now the 1,200-year-old Askariya shrine is a military target? As Randi would say; "Yeah, riiight"


Just add the proper amount of spin, and voila! Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence becomes evidence that the situation is stabilizing!

Iraqi on Iraqi violence is evidence of nothing being as it has been going on since there was an Iraq. I can look out my window right now at a city that has a nightly throe of "American on American" violence. If I ran down the street crying "civil war! civil war!" it wouldn't really add to any kind of understanding of or solution to the problem. I kinda just let the police handle that crap....just like the vast majority of Iraqis are doing right now.

-z
 
So now the 1,200-year-old Askariya shrine is a military target? As Randi would say; "Yeah, riiight"

Ooh, nice dodge. Doesn't fly, though.

Iraqi on Iraqi violence is evidence of nothing being as it has been going on since there was an Iraq.

OK, so you know little about Iraq's history. Fair enough.

I can look out my window right now at a city that has a nightly throe of "American on American" violence. If I ran down the street crying "civil war! civil war!" it wouldn't really add to any kind of understanding of or solution to the problem.

Is the gang warfare going on in any US city really on the scale of the violence in Iraq? Are you really making such an inane comparison, Rik?

I kinda just let the police handle that crap....just like the vast majority of Iraqis are doing right now.

Really? Then why are US--oh, excuse me, "coalition"--forces there, again? Please, Rik, you know better than this.
 
If he couldn't get the best minds in America to come up with a decent after-war plan, then that's his failure and has nothing to do with the Democrats. If you want to blame anything, go ahead and blame the people who got us into this new Vietnam in the first place.

Speaking of failures of ideas, what's with the continuing failure of war opponents to come up with a better anallogy for Iraq than the new Vietnam? I thought the claim was that the anti-war people WERE the best minds in America - isn't that the standard critique, that the smart people opposed it and only the dumb rubes supported it? Then why the hell can't they explain this supposed giant failure on its own terms? If it's really so obvious that we're doomed to defeat, why is it necessary to keep stretching back to more than a generation ago in order to try to prove it? It's like a rhetorical pacifier: the word "Vietnam" doesn't actually PROVE anything in a debate (just like a pacifier doesn't provide milk), but it provides a kind of reassurance to those who utter it, and damned if you'll give THAT up.
 
Iraqi on Iraqi violence is evidence of nothing being as it has been going on since there was an Iraq. I can look out my window right now at a city that has a nightly throe of "American on American" violence. If I ran down the street crying "civil war! civil war!" it wouldn't really add to any kind of understanding of or solution to the problem. I kinda just let the police handle that crap....just like the vast majority of Iraqis are doing right now.

-z
great, so things are no different now then before the war so I can assume then you would have no problem supporting an immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops. ;)
 

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