Thank God Afghanistan is Free!

FreeChile said:
Who did you mean then?

We had a JW here on JREF once trying to convert us and I don't think he lasted one whole thread.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant the Afghani who is goint to be executed. Though stating that drains any remaining humor left in my original post.
 
bob_kark said:
Sorry, I meant the Afghani who is goint to be executed. Though stating that drains any remaining humor left in my original post.
Click to expand...
It would be very interesting if the accused is actually a JW. I mean he converted 20+ years ago and they decide to charge him now. Some timing! I know JWs can get on your nerves but I would be surprised if they remained close with their families for that long. Unless the guy is now more active in the JWs and is now trying to convert his entire family.
 
bob_kark said:
Well, to be fair, he is a Jehova's Witness.
Click to expand...

How did he think no one would notice? He WAS caught traveling door to door (a 40 mile round-trip in his "neighborhood") with copies of The WatchTower. ;)
 
Last edited:
From today's Chicago Tribune: (free registration required)
KABUL, Afghanistan -- Abdul Rahman told his family he was a Christian. He told the neighbors, bringing shame upon his home. But then he told the police, and he could no longer be ignored.

..."We will cut him into little pieces," said Hosnia Wafayosofi, who works at the jail, as she made a cutting motion with her hands. "There's no need to see him."

...Rahman and his family have a history of problems. Manan said his son never worked, beat up family members and seemed mentally ill.

Rahman left Afghanistan shortly after the birth of his daughters, now 12 and 13. He and his wife divorced. While overseas, Rahman converted to Christianity. He returned to Afghanistan about three years ago and moved back in with his father and daughters. He left for months at a time, working at a restaurant or as a security guard.

He stayed with cousins, who asked him to leave after he said he was a Christian. Eventually, Rahman moved back with his father.

"He is my son," said Manan, crying. "But if a son does not care about the dignity of his family, the dignity of his father, God can take him away. You cannot make anything out of such a son. He is useless."

He complained about Rahman's behavior to local police, but did not mention his religious conversion. At first, police asked the family to try to resolve its own problems. Then in early February, Rahman showed up at the police station and complained about how his family treated him. While there, he announced he had become a Christian.

Police said they had no choice except sending the case to central police command.

"We knew he had converted, but we didn't want to get involved in religious issues," said Col. Abdul Mohammed, the deputy commander of the police district. "So we filed a report on the family's problems to send to the central police. And he insisted over and over, `Please write in my file that I converted to Christianity.'"
Click to expand...
He sounds mentally ill, if you ask me. And some family he has!
 
Cleon said:
...Or he's trying to make a point.

Either way, it presents an interesting image of "liberated" Afghanistan.
Click to expand...

I would say he's dying to make a point. ;) Why else would he notify his family, then the authorities knowing what the penalty would be?
 
He could also be a mold--designed to rattle the system enough to bring about some reform. It is in the interest of many for this kind of thing to happen. This will force the courts to address such issues. This would mean he is just playing ignorant. If that is the case, he would be doing a very good job so far.
 
Ah so, it's illegal to practice Christianity in Afghanistan? Is the same true of the rest of Arabia? Iraq? Saudi? Dubai? Kuwait?
It is....

If so, how do our troops do it? Oh wait, that's why they are being shot at and blown up. That explains it. Our troops are law breakers and must be punished/executed/"cut" up in little pieces (which is what a jailer said should happen to Rahman). I knew something would happen that could explain this sooner or later. Now if only GW got the message.
 
Last edited:
In Saudia Arabia, our ally, it is illegal to be Cristian as for the other gulf states I cannot say
 
Cleon said:
Thus establishing you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Click to expand...


And what do I have no idea about? That we're wasting our time, blood and money trying to bring democracy to the arabic-islamic world when what they need is rehab and reality checks; that our primarily Judeo-Christian secular military is being targeted for execution on a daily basis, no several times daily? That the bastards doing this believe they are the crusaders reincarnated who have returned and must be vanquished?

But Cleon, it didn't take very long for events to illustrate that while you accuse me and the author of being racist by re-publishing Egyptian Professor Tarek Heggy's inventory of arab personality defects, the arabs themselves have proved that it is they who are the racists and we're the idiots for spending our blood and our money trying to bring democracy and freedom of religion to either Iraq or the Afghan narco-state.

Rahman's execution, if he is not saved by the official protests of Italy and Germany ..official U.S. policy so far is to say nothing much ...will prove beyond all doubt that Professor Heggy is right on the money. No doubt he, like myself, lived through (it was actually televised in the UK) the 1978 public execution/beheading of a Saudi princess because she fell in love with and married an unapproved arabic man who was also executed because he was a "commoner." Couldn't get much more racist than that.

These people are not only archaic, they are basically barbaric, and as a group, collectively pathological in the context of modern world. They deserve each other. From your remarks one can only assume that you are with them.

The Observer, 22 January 1978, page 1

EXCLUSIVE

A Saudi Arabian Princess and her husband have been executed in public because she eloped with a commoner. A Special Correspondent reports

When Saudi Arabia issued a decree last summer banning travel by unaccompanied women, young Saudi Arabs bridled at what they believed was an excess of conservative Islamic zeal on the part of the ruling royal family.

Irritation over this measure has gradually changed to horrified disbelief and then indignation among many Saudis and other Arabs as word has gradually leaked out about the real reason for ban - a tragic romance last year in the desert kingdom involving the ultimately fatal bid of a Saudi princess to marry the man she loved.

The 23-year-old Princess Misha was one of the 2,000 princesses belonging to the house of Saud. Her grandfather was prince Muhammad Bin Adbul Aziz, the eldest surviving son of Ibn Saud and senior prince of the Saudi royal family.

The house of Saud increasingly intermarries as a means of protecting the family interest. It forbids its women to marry outside the family or a closely associated line, like that of the Sudeiris.

So when reports came back to Riyadh last summer of a romance in Beirut involving Princess Misha, the girl was swiftly summoned home and told that she must marry her family's choice - a man her father's age.

Her own suitor, whom she had met while studying in the Lebanon, was rejected by the family as a commoner, even though he was the cousin of Saudi Arabia's influential ambassador in Beirut, the former General Ali Shaar, who was Riyadh's proconsul in the Arab pact which ended the Lebanese civil war.

The princess, rather then submit to the family's choice, eloped with the young Shaar. They persuaded a sheikh to marry them and went to ground at the Hotel Al-Attras in a seaside resort called The Creek, north of Jedda.

There, last autumn, despite the travel ban imposed to prevent their escape, the young couple prepared to flee the country.

First, the princess staged a fake death by drowning, leaving her clothes on the shore. Then, disguised as a man in Saudi robes, her hair cut short under the head- cloth, the princess went to Jedda airport to board a plane with a group of friends. Her husband was to travel separately in the same plane.

But her identity was discovered when the passengers were searched by security guards before boarding the plane. They were both arrested on a royal warrant.

Dragged before her grand-father, the head of her branch of the royal family, the girl pleaded for mercy at least for her husband.
Click to expand...

more at:

http://www.cambridgeclarion.org/press_cuttings/saudi_obs_22jan1978.html
 
Last edited:
Yes, yes, we know, Steve. Arabs and Muslims are evil. We get it. Now run along. I'm sure there are evildoers in Aghanistan or the "rest of Arabia" (*snicker*) that need to be told the wisdom of your ways. Or killed. Whichever is easiest, eh?
 
Cleon said:
Yes, yes, we know, Steve. Arabs and Muslims are evil. We get it. Now run along. I'm sure there are evildoers in Aghanistan or the "rest of Arabia" (*snicker*) that need to be told the wisdom of your ways. Or killed. Whichever is easiest, eh?
Click to expand...

I have never suggested "we" kill them. Rather the opposite. We should get the hell out of their countries so that they stop killing us and we STOP killing them; we also should stop worrying that they seem to be happiest killing each other without other targets hanging around. I don't believe that mentally ill people should be killed. Nor are they evil. They're, for want of a better term, nuts. Anyone would be well advised to avoid heavily armed nutjobs.

It's not me that is an expert on the arab mind, it is arab scholars such as Heggy. I reprint a brief part of his quote here as it is as pertinent to this discussion of poor Rahman's conversion to Christianity as it was in the other thread:

1. A lack of intellectual hospitality;

2. It is steeped in a culture that encourages conformity and discourages diversity;

3. Limited tolerance for the Other;

4. Limited tolerance for criticism and the virtual absence of self-criticism;

5. The adoption of stands not on the basis of their coherence, validity or intrinsic value but on the basis of tribal or religious affiliations;

6. Deep feelings of inequality with others in terms of results and achievements makes for a sense of inadequacy that is sublimated
into an exaggerated and unfounded pride;

7. A tendency to indulge in excessive self-praise and to glorify past achievements as a way of escaping our dismal reality;

8. The prevalence of what I call the ‘big-talk culture’, in which overblown rhetoric is used to compensate for the appalling lack of concrete achievements;

9. A lack of objectivity and the growth of individualism;

10. An unhealthy nostalgia for and escape into the past;

11. An aversion to the notion of compromise, which is deemed to be
a form of capitulation and defeat;

12. Lack of respect for women;

13. A tendency to unquestioningly accept stereotypes at face value;

14. Setting great store by the conspiracy theory and believing that the Arabs are always the victims of heinous plots hatched against
them by their enemies;

15. An ill-defined sense of national identity: is it Arab, Muslim, Asian, African or Mediterranean?

16. The spread of the personality cult phenomenon in Arab societies, where the relationship with the ruler is based not on
mutual respect and accountability but on the excessive adulation, not to say deification, of the ruler;

17. The prevalence of an insular culture that knows next to nothing about the outside world and the real balance of power by which
it is governed, let alone the science or culture of others;

18. A lack of appreciation for the value of the bond that links the human species together, which is their common humanity. For most
people in the region, the only bonds that count are either tribal, sectarian or nationalistic, although humanity is the most exalted
common denominator of all;

19. The spread of a mentality of fanaticism due to a number of factors, the most important being the tribalism that dominates the
Arab mind-set to varying degrees;

20. Finally, the Arab mind-set is not overly concerned with the notion of freedom for the simple reason that the Arabs have enjoyed
only limited doses of political rights and civil liberties.


The twenty defects listed above are by no means exhaustive; I have no doubt that any Middle East expert can come up with many more. However, all these defects are acquired, which means they are amenable to reform. Moreover, they can all be found, albeit to different degrees, in other societies. As I mentioned, they stem from the prevailing climate of political despotism and outdated educational and information systems designed and operated to serve the interests of a power structure intent on maintaining its iron grip.



http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007444.php
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Mephisto said:
Who could say what they would be doing if we hadn't liberated them from the evil clutches of the Taliban. Maybe we declared "Mission Accomplished" too early in Afghanistan too?

Whoda thunk I'd defend a Christian? ;)
__________

"KABUL -- An Afghan man who allegedly converted from Islam to Christianity is being prosecuted in a Kabul court and could be sentenced to death, a judge said yesterday.

The defendant, Abdul Rahman, was arrested last month after his family went to the police and accused him of becoming a Christian, Judge Ansarullah Mawlavezada told The Associated Press in an interview.

Such a conversion would violate the country's Islamic laws."

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/World/2006/03/20/1496552-sun.html
Click to expand...

Well he's getting a trial as well as international press right? Considering the amount of leverage the "west" has with Karzai's government I'd say this bloke has a decent chance of getting off.

Progress...as most reasonable people know...is a continuum of baby steps. So I'd say that...yes...Afghanistan has come a long way. Back a few years ago this guy would likely have never dared open his mind to anything outside of Islam. So he chose Christianity? So what? It's a start...it's movement...and movements have been started on the actions of a lone brave voice before you know.

Afghanis are no longer blowing up Buddahs, or killing their women in soccer stadiums for dress code violations, or kids for flying kites and listening to music. That is progress. This fellow would likely have never even made it to a court in the past. His family likely would have murdered him and then gotten a medal from Mullah Omar...

So yeah...it's progress. To expect more is natural...but to expect instant adherance to western jurisprudance and civil rights is frankly moronic.

-z
 
rikzilla said:
Well he's getting a trial as well as international press right? Considering the amount of leverage the "west" has with Karzai's government I'd say this bloke has a decent chance of getting off.
Click to expand...
According to a Danish newspaper called Politikken, they're considering dropping the charges on the grounds of insanity (his not theirs). Whether he actually is nuts or if it's just a convinient way of getting out of the problem I don't know.
 
I'm sorry, why is this story used as an attack on Bush? Hey, if he deserves it he deserves it but where did Bush go wrong? :confused:
 
Dcdrac said:
In Saudia Arabia, our ally, it is illegal to be Cristian as for the other gulf states I cannot say
Click to expand...


I believe it's legal to be a Christian, they even have churches. It's just illegal to convert to Christianity if you are a Muslim, and it's illegal for a Christian to proselytize. It’s also illegal to openly celebrate Christianity by wearing a cross or celebrating Christian holidays.
 
Mycroft said:
I believe it's legal to be a Christian, they even have churches. It's just illegal to convert to Christianity if you are a Muslim, and it's illegal for a Christian to proselytize. It’s also illegal to openly celebrate Christianity by wearing a cross or celebrating Christian holidays.
Click to expand...

It is illegal to be a Jew in Saudi Arabia. At one time and perhaps still if you want a visa to go live and work there you needed proof, a letter from clergy, that you were not a Jew. Moslems and Christians were allowed.

Basically the fundamentalist Arab Islamic states in the middle east are not only tribal but openly racist.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom