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Loose Change

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The globalists who control the US government have created these monsters, and have embroiled us into unjust wars on the basis of lies and deceit.
You guys are the only ones that use this term this way. Can you explain what it means? Name names? Tell us how you know they are globalists?

A Google search for that word brings up:
http://www.redmoonrising.com/Ikhwan/Clash.htm
http://www.rense.com/general67/sani.htm
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/livingstone.htm

ETA Globalists?
try_and_stop_us.jpg
 
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Once you recognise the logic and facts provided here, you ... might see the justification in fighting the horrendous evils of the Taliban and the Saddam Hussein regime with appropriate strength.
That doesn't follow. Almost everyone in America believes the standard story for how 9/11 happened, but many (most?) of us don't support what we've done in Iraq.
 
And does this look like a 16 foot hole to anyone? That's what Loose Changes says is all that was created in the Pentagon by the attack.

overview.jpg

I'm re-reading the thread as suggested by another poster. I believe Luke T. has misunderstood something here. The hole they're referring to in Loose Change was documented in photographs shortly after the impact of whatever hit the Pentagon. Here is a picture of the hole:

Pentagon3.jpg


Luke's picture above depicts the pentagon after the roof collapsed, so there is no inconsistency in the movie there.

I pointed this out in the thread before, but I couldn't link to images.
 
I'm re-reading the thread as suggested by another poster. I believe Luke T. has misunderstood something here. The hole they're referring to in Loose Change was documented in photographs shortly after the impact of whatever hit the Pentagon. Here is a picture of the hole:
And yet...
Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"
Is Kilsheimer in on the conspiracy too, Alek? And just how big is this conspiracy, please give a rough estimate. It would have to include all of these people too, and this is just a small portion of eyewitnesses to the Pentagon crash:
"'(The plane) was flying fast and low and the Pentagon was the obvious target,' said Fred Gaskins, who was driving to his job as a national editor at USA Today near the Pentagon when the plane passed about 150 feet overhead. 'It was flying very smoothly and calmly, without any hint that anything was wrong.'"
- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001

"Aydan Kizildrgli, an English language student who is a native of Turkey, saw the jetliner bank slightly then strike a western wall of the huge five-sided building that is the headquarters of the nation's military. 'There was a big boom,' he said. 'Everybody was in shock. I turned around to the car behind me and yelled "Did you see that?" Nobody could believe it.'"
- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001

"'I saw the tail of a large airliner. ... It plowed right into the Pentagon," said an Associated Press Radio reporter who witnessed the crash. 'There is billowing black smoke.'"
- "America's Morning of Terror." ChannelOne.com, 2001

"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. 'There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"A pilot who saw the impact, Tim Timmerman, said it had been an American Airways 757. "'It added power on its way in,' he said. 'The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Steve Eiden, a truck driver, had picked up his cargo that Tuesday morning in Williamsburg, Va., and was en route to New York City and witnessed the aftermath. ... He took the Highway 95 loop in the area of the Pentagon and thought it odd to see a plane in restricted airspace, thinking to himself it was odd that it was flying so low. 'You could almost see the people in the windows,' he said as he watched the plane disappear behind a line of trees, followed by a tall plume of black smoke. Then he saw the Pentagon on fire, and an announcement came over the radio that the Pentagon had been hit."
- "Sept. 11, the Day America Changed." The Baxter Bulletin, 2001

"Traffic is normally slow right around the Pentagon as the road winds and we line up to cross the 14th Street bridge heading into the District of Columbia. I donât know what made me look up, but I did and I saw a very low-flying American Airlines plane that seemed to be accelerating. My first thought was just 'No, no, no, no,' because it was obvious the plane was not heading to nearby Reagan National Airport. It was going to crash."
- "September 11 Remembered." University Week, 4 Oct 2001

"Father Stephen McGraw was driving to a graveside service at Arlington National Cemetery the morning of Sept. 11, when he mistakenly took the Pentagon exit onto Washington Boulevard, putting him in a position to witness American Airlines Flight 77 crash into the Pentagon. 'I was in the left hand lane with my windows closed. I did not hear anything at all until the plane was just right above our cars.' McGraw estimates that the plane passed about 20 feet over his car, as he waited in the left hand lane of the road, on the side closest to the Pentagon. 'The plane clipped the top of a light pole just before it got to us, injuring a taxi driver, whose taxi was just a few feet away from my car. I saw it crash into the building,' he said. 'My only memories really were that it looked like a plane coming in for a landing. I mean in the sense that it was controlled and sort of straight. That was my impression,' he said. 'There was an explosion and a loud noise and I felt the impact. I remember seeing a fireball come out of two windows (of the Pentagon). I saw an explosion of fire billowing through those two windows.'"
- "Pentagon Crash Eyewitness Comforted Victims." MDW News Service, 28 Sep 2001

"'I glanced up just at the point where the plane was going into the building,' said Carla Thompson, who works in an Arlington, Va., office building about 1,000 yards from the crash. 'I saw an indentation in the building and then it was just blown-up upred, everything red,' she said. 'Everybody was just starting to go crazy. I was petrified.'"
- "Terrorists Attack New York, Pentagon." Los Angeles Times, 12 Sep 2001

"I witnessed the jet hit the Pentagon on September 11. From my office on the 19th floor of the USA TODAY building in Arlington, Va., I have a view of Arlington Cemetery, Crystal City, the Pentagon, National Airport and the Potomac River. ... Shortly after watching the second tragedy, I heard jet engines pass our building, which, being so close to the airport is very common. But I thought the airport was closed. I figured it was a plane coming in for landing. A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke."
- Steve Anderson, Director of Communications, USA Today

"Henry Ticknor, intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington, Virginia, was driving to church that Tuesday morning when American Airlines Flight 77 came in fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon. 'There was a puff of white smoke and then a huge billowing black cloud,' he said."
- "Hell on Earth." UU World, Jan/Feb 2002

"Northern Virginia resident John O'Keefe was one of the commuters who witnessed the attack on the Pentagon. 'I was going up 395, up Washington Blvd., listening to the the news, to WTOP, and from my left side-I don't know whether I saw or heard it first- I saw a silver plane I immediately recognized it as an American Airlines jet,' said the 25-year-old O'Keefe, managing editor of Influence, an American Lawyer Media publication about lobbying. 'It came swooping in over the highway, over my left shoulder, straight across where my car was heading. I'd just heard them saying on the radio that National Airport was closing, and I thought, "That's not going to make it to National Airport." And then I realized where I was, and that it was going to hit the Pentagon. There was a burst of orange flame that shot out that I could see through the highway overpass. Then it was just black. Just black, thick smoke.'"
- "Terrorist 'Situation'." American Lawyer Media, 11 Sep 2001

Flight 77 Crash at the Pentagon, Sept. 11, 2001 "On a Metro train to National Airport, Allen Cleveland looked out the window to see a jet heading down toward the Pentagon. 'I thought, "There's no landing strip on that side of the subway tracks,"' he said. Before he could process that thought, he saw 'a huge mushroom cloud. The lady next to me was in absolute hysterics.'"
- "Our Plane Is Being Hijacked." Washington Post, 12 Sep 2001

"I was supposed to have been going to the Pentagon Tuesday morning at about 11:00am (EDT) and was getting ready, and thank goodness I wasn't going to be going until later. It was so shocking, I was listening to the news on what had happened in New York, and just happened to look out the window because I heard a low flying plane and then I saw it hit the Pentagon. It happened so fast... it was in the air one moment and in the building the next..."
- "U.S. Under Attack: Your Eyewitness Accounts." BBC News, 14 Sep 2001

"As I approached the Pentagon, which was still not quite in view, listening on the radio to the first reports about the World Trade Center disaster in New York, a jetliner, apparently at full throttle and not more than a couple of hundred yards above the ground, screamed overhead. ... Seconds before the Pentagon came into view a huge black cloud of smoke rose above the road ahead. I came around the bend and there was the Pentagon billowing smoke, flames and debris, blackened on one side and with a gaping hole where the airplane had hit it."
- "Eyewitness at the Pentagon." Human Events, 17 Sep 2001

"Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, left his office trailer near the Pentagon's south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, he suddenly saw a commercial airliner crest the hilltop Navy Annex. American Airlines Flight 77 reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he'd lose his head to its right engine."
- "A Defiant Recovery." The Retired Officer Magazine, January 2002

"USAToday.com Editor Joel Sucherman saw it all: an American Airlines jetliner fly left to right across his field of vision as he commuted to work Tuesday morning. It was highly unusual. The large plane was 20 feet off the ground and a mere 50 to 75 yards from his windshield. Two seconds later and before he could see if the landing gear was down or any of the horror-struck faces inside, the plane slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon 100 yards away. 'My first thought was he's not going to make it across the river to [Reagan] National Airport. But whoever was flying the plane made no attempt to change direction,' Sucherman said. 'It was coming in at a high rate of speed, but not at a steep angleâalmost like a heat-seeking missile was locked onto its target and staying dead on course.'"
- "Journalist Witnesses Pentagon Crash." eWeek.com, 13 Sep 2001
 
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Also, BTW Alek - Hal Bidlack, a former admin. on this forum was working in the Pentagon on that day. Is he in on the conspiracy too?
 
But wildcat...thats the disinformation the media is spreading....

Bush is a shapeshifter!
 
Personally, I'm trying to remain skeptical on the whole issue. I don't trust any Bush as far as I could throw them, and I certainly think that any fundie Christian with money and power ought to be shot anyway; but to suggest that Bush could have orchestrated something to THIS scale is ludicrous.

So you're the advocating murder of people who you don't tolerate, while simultaneously showing your ignorance of the fact that Bush isn't even a "Christian". That's more than a little disturbing.
 
There is an answer to this horrible, terrifying stand-off, but I'm afraid that we in the West would never countenance it.

So the carnage will continue indefinitely.

M.

What exactly wouldn't we countenance, the use of nuclear weapons on millions of innocent people? Is this another example of the reason and tolerance of "skeptics" in this forum?
 
No. And the question of whether or not the war in Iraq was justified (it clearly wasn't, based on the reasons given by the Bush administration before the invasion) is a completely separate issue from whether or not there was US government involvement in the 9/11 attacks. Let's not muddle the two.

I hated to bring it up, but it seems to me it is muddled in Alek's mind.

I also hate discussing politics, especially when the term I feel compelled to refer to is 'axis of evil'.
 
That doesn't follow. Almost everyone in America believes the standard story for how 9/11 happened, but many (most?) of us don't support what we've done in Iraq.

Look carefully at what I said:

Once you recognise the logic and facts provided here, you ... might see the justification in fighting the horrendous evils of the Taliban and the Saddam Hussein regime with appropriate strength.

(emphasis added)
I also mentioned the Taliban, so I was erring well on the side of caution.
 
Here is a debunking of the Popular Mechanics article.

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pm/
Not a bad article. According to it the following are not evidence for a conspiracy:
1) Where's The Pod
4) Flight 175's Windows
5) Widespread Damage
7) "Melted Steel"
8) Seismic Spikes
10) Big Plane, Small Holes
11) Intact Windows
12) Flight 77 Debris
13) The White Jet (I think. He just restates what the PM article says)
15) Indian Lake (restated)
16) F-16 Pilot (restated)

So the author agrees that many of the arguments for a conspiracy debunked in the PM article are specious. Glad to see a guy who doesn't buy every wild eyed claim that supports his theory. His argument that debunking these same points he doesn't agree with makes the article flawed is somewhat less than compelling. That the article has not sought out and debunked every possible theory is hardly a suprise. That they had not sought out his personal favorite evidence is not evidence of it's ineffectiveness, it's evidence of the vast amount of plainly wrong information out there.

One must enjoy the irony of him complaining about ad hominem attacks in the PM article given his opening paragraph
The Hearst-owned Popular Mechanics magazine takes aim at the 9/11 Truth Movement (without ever acknowledging it by that name) with a cover story in its March 2005 edition. Sandwiched between ads and features for monster trucks, NASCAR paraphernalia, and off-road racing are twelve dense and brilliantly designed pages purporting to debunk the myths of 9/11.

At the end he claims this is an ad hominem:
I summarily dismiss [allegations that Gibney shot down Flight 93] because Lt. Col. Gibney was with me at the time. It disgusts me to see this because the public is being misled. More than anything else it disgusts me because it brings up fears. It brings up hopes -- it brings up all sorts of feelings, not only to the victims' families but to all individuals throughout the country, and the world for that matter. I get angry at the misinformation out there.
 
So you're the advocating murder of people who you don't tolerate, while simultaneously showing your ignorance of the fact that Bush isn't even a "Christian". That's more than a little disturbing.
And now you post an Illuminati Conspiracy site? Just when I thought you couldn't outdo yourself, you proved me wrong. Well done! :boggled:
 
Alek, how about the witnesses to the pentagon flight?
You tend to believe other 'anecdotal' evidence, so how about these testimonies? dont brush past them....

Be careful, the governments onto you...remember Hal is watching.

Edit: that fundy site is madness. Irational. And isn't it a good thing if the leader of a powerful country such as USA was not a christian?
 
is there at least just ONE CT of 911 that agrees with another...JUST ONE PLEASE....gawd....
 
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