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"Roe v. Wade for Men"

This sounds exactly like an anti-abortion speech.

Were more people to use condoms when they ought to, there would be fewer abortions. I think both pro-choice and pro-life people ought to be able to agree that reducing the number of undesired pregnancies before they occur is a desirable thing. Given that as an added bonus, increased condom use will also cut down on STDs, it seems insane not to promote it.
 
We don't know all the facts of the case but yes, it sure looks like that.

For a moment, forgo pregnancy here and think of it in these terms:

Person A deceived person B and created a situation where B must pay A due to the deceit.


Person A deceived person B, and in the process, with B's help, created person C. Both person A and B have to pay for the maintenance of C. What's so complex about it?

We could go on and on about how a pregnancy should've been prevented, and yet, it's happened, the kid is here. Lets deal with the consequences.
 
"Hey can you have babies?"
"No."

Hence the case.
Except that's not quite what happened, is it?

"Can you have babies?"
"I am sterile and I'm on the pill."
"Good enough for me!"

Now, if I were him I might stop and think about what she said.

"Hmmm, if she's sterile then why is she taking the pill? Apparently there's still a chance of pregnancy even if you're 'sterile' and I know the pill is not 100% effective. While the chances are small - very small - I could get her pregnant."
 
Person A deceived person B, and in the process, with B's help, created person C. Both person A and B have to pay for the maintenance of C. What's so complex about it?
The C part.
We could go on and on about how a pregnancy should've been prevented, and yet, it's happened, the kid is here. Lets deal with the consequences.

She can deal with it however she wants, I'm not about to stop her. But, since it was her choice no reason to bring him into it.
 
How's that different from psychics who lie to get people out of money?

I didn't realize that life was perfectly divided into Undeserving Victims and Evil Deceivers. I think both parties in such transactions are deserving of blame; one for being fradulent, the other for being foolishly gullible. I hope you don't think that my condemnation of this idiot for impregnating this woman in any way absolves her of any wrongdoing. If she really did lie to him, then she's bad. That doesn't make him any less foolish, or responsible.
 
Except that's not quite what happened, is it?
We don't know what happened so your guess is as good as mine.
Now, if I were him I might stop and think about what she said.

"Hmmm, if she's sterile then why is she taking the pill? Apparently there's still a chance of pregnancy even if you're 'sterile' and I know the pill is not 100% effective. While the chances are small - very small - I could get her pregnant."

Cetainly, always wear a condomn.

That still doesn't change the fact she lied to get money out of him.

If it was up to me I would take the baby away because he doesn't care and she doesn't sound like a type of person who should be raising kids.
 
The C part.


She can deal with it however she wants, I'm not about to stop her. But, since it was her choice no reason to bring him into it.

So any guy can say that if a child is accidental/condom broke/pill failed, they do not have to pay child support?
 
I didn't realize that life was perfectly divided into Undeserving Victims and Evil Deceivers. I think both parties in such transactions are deserving of blame; one for being fradulent, the other for being foolishly gullible. I hope you don't think that my condemnation of this idiot for impregnating this woman in any way absolves her of any wrongdoing. If she really did lie to him, then she's bad. That doesn't make him any less foolish, or responsible.
I do indeed think that because of your use of the word "deserve."
 
So any guy can say that if a child is accidental/condom broke/pill failed, they do not have to pay child support?

No.

If a man makes it clear that he wants nothing to do with kids why the f*** would she have one?

Particularly in this situation where a woman apperently lied to a man so she can get pregnant.
 
Regardless of her statements regarding her capacity to become pregnant, why didn't they BOTH insist on a condom? I'm all for free love, but not at the cost of an STD.

It is possible to be told by doctors that you are sterile, and needn't worry about a thing, and then find you are pregnant.

But why she wouldn't insist on a condom ....

I'm very divided on this issue.
 
No.

If a man makes it clear that he wants nothing to do with kids why the f*** would she have one?

Particularly in this situation where a woman apperently lied to a man so she can get pregnant.


Why? Because contraceptives fail and some people happen to be anti-abortion. :)

Not telling the truth to your partner's a bad thing. Nontheless, I stand by my point of "If you're anti-kids, restrain your sexual urges or just tell your partner "N.O."."
 
Don't men have the right to request a free paternity test when the child is born and before the man signs the birth certificate as the father? I believe that's the case in most states. Perhaps that should be made mandatory, just to be on the safe side.

While pro-choice (which has a nice way of preventing all these silly child support problems), it seems to be a punishment for not conforming to Christian beliefs by automatically marrying a woman after she has a child. While I do believe that men should pay a reasonable amount, at what point does that stop being reasonable? I believe there should be some accounting going on with this to see that a fair amount (or rather, upkeep for the child) is spent instead of making it a Christian Revenge Tax. While necessary, I think it is a flawed system.
 
While pro-choice (which has a nice way of preventing all these silly child support problems), it seems to be a punishment for not conforming to Christian beliefs by automatically marrying a woman after she has a child. While I do believe that men should pay a reasonable amount, at what point does that stop being reasonable? I believe there should be some accounting going on with this to see that a fair amount (or rather, upkeep for the child) is spent instead of making it a Christian Revenge Tax. While necessary, I think it is a flawed system.

Would any parents on the forum care to give an estimate of child-care costs?
 
I'd second that. The only information I have from this is the male side as a few male coworkers at a few jobs I've had have had half their checks taken out for child support..well, according to them.
 
That's your argument, not mine.

No, it's not. I blame the man for not taking responsibility for himself. That doesn't mean I can't blame the woman for lying about being barren, or for not insisting on condom use. Both parties bear blame. I was only arguing about the man's share because that's where the disagreement is.
 
This discussion is getting caught up on things that don't have any direct bearing on this case. The case is about equal protection under the law.

Forget who was careless and who lied to whom. Water under the bridge. As usual, the question we need to deal with is, "What now?"

I think this is a solid case, although I'm not holding out hope that judges (who are typically socially conservative) will agree with me.

As it stands now, the woman is given the opportunity to sever her legal responsibility for the resulting pregnancy through abortion or adoption. She is given this opportunity regardless of whether she was careless, unlucky, or a victim of dishonesty. This decision is unilateral, and does not depend on biology: adoption, at least, is a strictly legal entity.

Given that, why should the man be denied that same opportunity? Why does the woman have the right to wash her hands of the entire affair if she desires, but the man doesn't?

This isn't about sympathy, whether people acted stupidly, or whether they should accept responsibility for their actions. Those are all good things to discuss, but they have no bearing here. The only thing that matters is whether it's equitable for one sex to have legal power that the other doesn't, pure and simple.
 
This discussion is getting caught up on things that don't have any direct bearing on this case. The case is about equal protection under the law.

Forget who was careless and who lied to whom. Water under the bridge. As usual, the question we need to deal with is, "What now?"

I think this is a solid case, although I'm not holding out hope that judges (who are typically socially conservative) will agree with me.

As it stands now, the woman is given the opportunity to sever her legal responsibility for the resulting pregnancy through abortion or adoption. She is given this opportunity regardless of whether she was careless, unlucky, or a victim of dishonesty. This decision is unilateral, and does not depend on biology: adoption, at least, is a strictly legal entity.

Given that, why should the man be denied that same opportunity? Why does the woman have the right to wash her hands of the entire affair if she desires, but the man doesn't?

This isn't about sympathy, whether people acted stupidly, or whether they should accept responsibility for their actions. Those are all good things to discuss, but they have no bearing here. The only thing that matters is whether it's equitable for one sex to have legal power that the other doesn't, pure and simple.

Do you think this case has potential inverse consequences if it's decided a man has different powers than a woman?
 

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