Split Thread Islamic takeover

[icerat]

There´s also propaganda in the opposite direction, from mainstream media to downplay the issue. It appears to have worked on you.

What do you mean by "mainstream" media? I barely read what's usually meant by it (Guardian occasionally), pretty much never watch it. My knowledge of the issue is mostly from people's claims and links on social media (like yours) and then going and doing actually research, looking at official statistics, etc etc

For example, your link to the Danish The Local earlier. I actually found and read the article. The gist of it was ... refugees cost the state money. More than immigrants coming for other reasons

Well duh. Of course refugees cost money. They're also a minority of immigrants.

It's also a 5 year old article reporting on data from 8 years ago! It also said the costs had been falling since 2014, and a quick bit of reserch shows *this has continued to happen* (though they're late with the latest updates)

So why are you reposting such old data and not mentioning the improvement?

 

[Abooga]

What do you mean by "mainstream" media? I barely read what's usually meant by it (Guardian occasionally), pretty much never watch it. My knowledge of the issue is mostly from people's claims and links on social media (like yours) and then going and doing actually research, looking at official statistics, etc etc

For example, your link to the Danish The Local earlier. I actually found and read the article. The gist of it was ... refugees cost the state money. More than immigrants coming for other reasons

Well duh. Of course refugees cost money. They're also a minority of immigrants.

It's also a 5 year old article reporting on data from 8 years ago! It also said the costs had been falling since 2014, and a quick bit of reserch shows *this has continued to happen* (though they're late with the latest updates)

So why are you reposting such old data and not mentioning the improvement?

You don´t read much media? I mostly read Spanish media and here the narrative is very clearly dictated and manipulated. I have the impression that it´s similar elsewhere in Europe but I couldn´t be so sure. There are two main directives, one, mainly from leftist media is to whitewash Islam. I would be surprised if you haven´t come accross this kind of narrative. The other is to downplay the rise of criminality from (certain) immigrants. Here in Spain it´s very blatant and even journalists have come forwards saying it is so. The intention is supposedly good, to try not to elicit negative sentiments against immigrants, avoid feeding racism and the far right... but you can´t hide things for too long. Eventually what you get is many people seeing through the deception and losing trust in the media, and indirectly having the opposite effect as desired, feeding the far right.

Regarding the Danish article, just tried to point out that according to some sources not all immigration brings economic benefits, as some poster claimed before, but it´s quite irrelevant for my main point so I drop it, it could well be fake news. I admit that immigration is often necessary for the economy... but that´s another can of worms... some say it brings salaries down and only benefits the rich... also, we seem to be at a moment when androids are just around the corner, so perhaps we will have a surplus of workers pretty soon...

 

[Helen]

There´s also propaganda in the opposite direction, from mainstream media to downplay the issue. It appears to have worked on you.

That is, withouta doubt, a conspiracy theory.

 

[jt512]

Islam remains is at present a minority religion in Europe.

Given the difference in fertility rates between Muslim and non-Muslim Europeans, Muslims will eventually outnumber non-Muslims in Western Europe, even if immigration were to be completely halted. But a group doesn't have to attain a majority to have significant social and political influence—especially under a parliamentary system of government. Thus, even at their present numbers, Muslims have significant political influence in western Europe, most notably in the U.K. This is why there is no political will there to curtail Muslim immigration, in spite of Brexit and government after government having been elected on promises to do so. I suspect the same is true in France. Germany maybe–maybe not.

Large swaths of Muslim immigrants not only are uninterested in integrating into the Western societies to which they immigrate, but view the values of those societies as inimical to their own. Some of this is due to the Muslim Brotherhood, which has outsized influence in Muslim communities, and whose ultimate goal—in their own words (English translation toward the end)—is to establish an Islamic caliphate in the West. Given just the demographic trends, It is difficult to see how the countries of Western Europe will ultimately preserve their historic Western democratic values within the constraints of their own constitutions, which seemingly demand tolerance for religious and ethnic groups that seek to undermine the values of their own societies. I'll leave the implications of that up to the imagination of the reader.

 

[Darat]

Given the difference in fertility rates between Muslim and non-Muslim Europeans, Muslims will eventually outnumber non-Muslims in Western Europe, even if immigration were to be completely halted. But a group doesn't have to attain a majority to have significant social and political influence—especially under a parliamentary system of government. Thus, even at their present numbers, Muslims have significant political influence in western Europe
, most notably in the U.K. This is why there is no political will there to curtail Muslim immigration, in spite of Brexit and government after government having been elected on promises to do so. I suspect the same is true in France. Germany maybe–maybe not.

...snip...

Really? Must have missed the memos.

 

[jt512]

Really? Must have missed the memos.

It's hard to read memos with your head buried in the sand.

 

[icerat]

Given the difference in fertility rates between Muslim and non-Muslim Europeans, Muslims will eventually outnumber non-Muslims in Western Europe, even if immigration were to be completely halted.

This is nonsense.
(1) Second generation immigrant fertlity rates are close to native. In Sweden they're lower than native!
(2) Many immigrants stop practicing their "mother" religion

But a group doesn't have to attain a majority to have significant social and political influence—especially under a parliamentary system of government. Thus, even at their present numbers, Muslims have significant political influence in western Europe, most notably in the U.K. This is why there is no political will there to curtail Muslim immigration, in spite of Brexit and government after government having been elected on promises to do so. I suspect the same is true in France. Germany maybe–maybe not.

Personally I would love to see far more people like Mamdani and El-Sayad in politics. I don't care what their cultural backgrounds. I like their politics. What specifically do you dislike about their politics?

Large swaths of Muslim immigrants not only are uninterested in integrating into the Western societies to which they immigrate, but view the values of those societies as inimical to their own. Some of this is due to the Muslim Brotherhood, which has outsized influence in Muslim communities,

(1) Evidence? Sources?
(2) define "large swaths"

 

[jt512]

Personally I would love to see far more people like Mamdani and El-Sayad in politics.

Well, that's all we need to know about you.

 

[Abooga]

That is, withouta doubt, a conspiracy theory.

Very effective propaganda, when many people don´t notice it. It reminds me of the joke.

"I have to admit, I'm always so impressed by Soviet propaganda. You really know how to get people worked up," the CIA agent says.

"Thank you," the KGB says. "We do our best but truly, it's nothing compared to American propaganda. Your people believe everything your state media tells them."

The CIA agent drops his drink in shock and disgust. "Thank you friend, but you must be confused... There's no propaganda in America."

 

[Helen]

Very effective propaganda, when many people don´t notice it. It reminds me of the joke.

"I have to admit, I'm always so impressed by Soviet propaganda. You really know how to get people worked up," the CIA agent says.

"Thank you," the KGB says. "We do our best but truly, it's nothing compared to American propaganda. Your people believe everything your state media tells them."

The CIA agent drops his drink in shock and disgust. "Thank you friend, but you must be confused... There's no propaganda in America."

I live in a country with a great many immigrants. I can watch what happens in reality. I use a great many news outlets, and my main source of news is an excellent Swedish morning paper, which is centrist, btw, and do not trust any one source. I have been doing this for many decades now, and it works, if you want a reasonably balanced view of the world. You, on the other hand, seem to eagerly swallow far right propaganda.

After WWII, I thought at least we in the Western world would not be so hasty to "other" whole groups of people, based only on one single characteristic, such as religion, ethnicity, sexuality, etc. I was wrong. The words have hardly changed, it really is just the same old, rancid, song.

 

[Abooga]

That is, withouta doubt, a conspiracy theory.

In Spain it was a CT for some time but then they admitted that there are actual instructions dictated by the government (talk about free media...) in order to hide the nationality of criminals when writing news items. For example:

https://gaceta.es/espana/rtve-confirma-que-en-2003-pp-y-psoe-pactaron-ocultar-la-nacionalidad-de-los-delincuentes-en-los-medios-de-comunicacion-20240627-1614/

Reading the news is like having to decipher a code. If it says "a Spaniard killed someone etc..." you know it was a Spaniard. When it says "a person killled someone etc." you know it was a foreigner. When it comes to gypsies they also use certain words "reyerta" etc. to describe the incidents, they can´t say it was gypsies (quite overrepresented in crime in Spain) but you can read between the lines.
All this just causes distrust in the media and institutions.

Regarding the whitewashing of Islam, you must have been living under a rock if you haven´t come accross this kind of thing bias in leftist media. I will try to find some examples if I have the time.

 

[Abooga]

I live in a country with a great many immigrants. I can watch what happens in reality. I use a great many news outlets, and my main source of news is an excellent Swedish morning paper, which is centrist, btw, and do not trust any one source. I have been doing this for many decades now, and it works, if you want a reasonably balanced view of the world. You, on the other hand, seem to eagerly swallow far right propaganda.

After WWII, I thought at least we in the Western world would not be so hasty to "other" whole groups of people, based only on one single characteristic, such as religion, ethnicity, sexuality, etc. I was wrong. The words have hardly changed, it really is just the same old, rancid, song.

I don´t have anything against people in general, it´s the dangerous, murderous cults they follow I have a problem with. I will ask you something I´ve asked a couple of times and for some reason it gets ignored:

In islam the official position is death to apostasy. (among other horrible positions that involve paedophilia, animal cruelty, treating women like property etc.)

How can you pretend that a religion such as this is anything but a dangerous cult? If someone made it up today if would be banned and prosecuted. But there are alrady so many millions of them that we have to pretend it´s not insane? Any thoughts about this? All peachy creamy?

 

[Helen]

So how many muslims are ready to kill apostates? That's the heart of the matter.

We've had loads of muslim immigrants here since the Balkan wars. None of them have killed any apostates. Many of them are now secular. Their kids and grandkids are about as muslim as their peers are christian. (Another dangerous cult, by the way.)

 

[Pixel42]

I do think there is an important distinction between being prejudiced against people because of characteristics they have no control over - where they were born, who their parents were, what colour skin they were born with - and being prejudiced against them because of their freely made choices. The former is automatically bigotry, the latter is not.

People may be born into a particular religion, but they choose which of its doctrines to obey, er, religiously, and indeed whether to remain in it or switch to another or even abandon religion altogether. So I think I understand where Abooga is coming from, when he regards the immigration of Islamists - people who have chosen to accept questionable, even dangerous, doctrines - with particular concern.

The good news, which has already been pointed out, is this very fact that such choices are not innate. Exposure to a new culture may be sufficient to moderate such beliefs, if not in the immigrants themselves then in their descendants. So there must surely be better and fairer options than fearing and rejecting immigrants based solely on which particular religion they (currently) belong to.

 

[Helen]

I agree, Pixel42, i just want to add that I'm not sure believing in Islam is a choice for those who have grown up in theocracies (just at it wasn't a choice to believe in Christianity here, back in the day), it's what happens when you see that there are other ways to think and live that matters.

And i don't mind that much what people believe in private, whether it's in Oden, Allah or Offler.

 

[jimbob]

I live in a country with a great many immigrants. I can watch what happens in reality. I use a great many news outlets, and my main source of news is an excellent Swedish morning paper, which is centrist, btw, and do not trust any one source. I have been doing this for many decades now, and it works, if you want a reasonably balanced view of the world. You, on the other hand, seem to eagerly swallow far right propaganda.

After WWII, I thought at least we in the Western world would not be so hasty to "other" whole groups of people, based only on one single characteristic, such as religion, ethnicity, sexuality, etc. I was wrong. The words have hardly changed, it really is just the same old, rancid, song.

Yup.

In the UK, some of the areas that show the most fear of immigrants are those that have the smallest numbers of immigrants living there.

About half my immediate colleagues in the UK are immigrants. Some are observant Muslims (both Sunni and Shia) but the idea of them being Islamicist is laughable.

It's almost as though unfamiliarity makes it easier to believe bad things about people.

 

[Darat]

It's hard to read memos with your head buried in the sand.

Please point me to them and I'll give them a read.

 

[icerat]

Well, that's all we need to know about you.

Yup, I'm a fan of policies based in reality and that work.

 

[icerat]

Yup.

In the UK, some of the areas that show the most fear of immigrants are those that have the smallest numbers of immigrants living there.

Same in Sweden. The areas that vote heaviest for the anti-immigrant parties are the ones with the least immigrants. Well ... recent immigrants in any case. The area of Sweden where I live when there votes heavily for them ... but it was built by immigrants in the 1800s

It's almost as though unfamiliarity makes it easier to believe bad things about people.

Yeah, though doesn't always help.
"deport all immigrants! Hey!!... No!! I didn't mean Bob who runs the hamburger shop! Or Mohammad my barber! Or Katya who looks after my mother! Why are you deporting them?!?!?!??!"

 

[Helen]

We wouldn't have any health care at all, without the immigrants. I have several muslim friends (after 2015, I volunteered in schools, to help all the new kids to understand this extremely weird country of ours, and met some wonderful, generous friends, whom i can always rely on to try to help me if they think i need it), who haven't tried to kill me at all. And the ones who came before them are part of our lives here, and don't seem eager to destroy our society to create a theocracy. Quite the opposite.