Trump's Second Term

[Planigale]

What makes that an exception?

If nothing else it wasn't plunder. The Elgin marbles were obtained during a time of peace, not war so are not plunder. The exact legitimacy of the removal could be argued (and was), but it wasn't done in secret, nor by force, and there is no evidence of any objection by the Islamic authorities to the removal of idolatrous statues. Elgin was the British Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire. In any case it is irrelevant to the argument that art should be returned to its place and culture of origin. China does this by a policy of purchase. Benin Bronzes (actual plunder) by politics. The Bayeux tapestry by temporary loan.

The issue is whether Columbus should be glorified given his actions. The Elgin marbles are often referred to as the Parthenon marbles so as to not glorify Elgin. Columbus destroyed the art and culture of native Americans taking gold by force*; Elgin sought to preserve the art and culture of ancient Greece.

*As Trump would say 'to the victor go the spoils', I am sure Trump would oppose the return of art gained by plunder.

Report from the Select Committee of the House of Commons on the Earl of Elgin's collection of sculptured marbles; &c : Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons. Select Committee on the Earl of Elgin's Collection of Sculptured Marbles : Free Downlo

Includes index

archive.org

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

If nothing else it wasn't plunder. The Elgin marbles were obtained during a time of peace, not war so are not plunder. The exact legitimacy of the removal could be argued (and was), but it wasn't done in secret, nor by force, and there is no evidence of any objection by the Islamic authorities to the removal of idolatrous statues. Elgin was the British Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire. In any case it is irrelevant to the argument that art should be returned to its place and culture of origin. China does this by a policy of purchase. Benin Bronzes (actual plunder) by politics. The Bayeux tapestry by temporary loan.

The issue is whether Columbus should be glorified given his actions. The Elgin marbles are often referred to as the Parthenon marbles so as to not glorify Elgin. Columbus destroyed the art and culture of native Americans taking gold by force*; Elgin sought to preserve the art and culture of ancient Greece.

*As Trump would say 'to the victor go the spoils', I am sure Trump would oppose the return of art gained by plunder.

Report from the Select Committee of the House of Commons on the Earl of Elgin's collection of sculptured marbles; &c : Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons. Select Committee on the Earl of Elgin's Collection of Sculptured Marbles : Free Downlo

Includes index

archive.org

The Parthenon Marbles were a theft backed up with forged documents. Elgin never had permission from any authority to destroy them and remove the remains.

 

[Planigale]

The Parthenon Marbles were a theft backed up with forged documents. Elgin never had permission from any authority to destroy them and remove the remains.

You may believe so, but it wasn't plunder. There are no 'forged' documents in evidence, the lack of original documents is not evidence of forgery. In retrospect we may know the Parthenon survived and Greece became an independent country. In Elgin's time it was possible that his actions were the best chance of survival of these artefacts. From an article advocating for the return of the marbles;

The extent of the permission granted to Elgin by the occupying powers in Greece has been debated by some, but the Turks were indeed the ‘internationally recognised authority’ in the region and took no steps to prevent or circumscribe his activities. Whether Elgin’s motives were ‘selfless and noble’ is also debatable. The justification he offered on his return was the aim of fostering and encouraging the arts in the United Kingdom—but perhaps you would say that if you were trying to sell your acquisitions to the British Museum. No doubt by his actions he did protect the Marbles from further intermittent and piecemeal depredation, and possibly from damage they might have suffered in the Greek War of Independence. But it is also true that the Marbles were damaged by well-intentioned acts of ‘restoration’ in the Victorian era.

Elgin Marbles Restitution: The Case for Returning Them to Athens

A dissent from History Reclaimed's own line: why the ethical case for Elgin Marbles restitution outweighs retention, and why the Louvre escapes scrutiny.

historyreclaimed.co.uk

A more detailed discussion of the authenticity of the documents remaining and the legality thereof can be read here,

The Elgin Marbles: Who Owns Them Now And Should They Ever Be Returned To Greece? - Church Court Chambers

Alkan Shenyuz, a barrister with Church Court Chambers in London and a specialist in international law, summarises the key legal ...

churchcourtchambers.co.uk

In any case coming back to the thread; Trump would oppose the return, he is clearly a believer in possession justifying ownership, and the strong have the right of possession, viz Diego Garcia.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Why are the Pyramids in Egypt?

Because they are too large to ship to the British Museum

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It might not have been "plunder" but it was blatant looting.

I wonder how many scimitar sheaths could be made from Big Ben.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

What makes that an exception?

I don't follow what you mean about an exception.

The original comment was about statues of Columbus, and some people wanting removed because they don't think the European conquest of the Americas deserves heroic monuments.

The Elgin marbles aren't in the British museum as a monument to conquest. Arguably as a result of conquest, but they're not a symbolic celebration of it. And when they were in their original locations they weren't a monument to conquest either. Most of them, as I understand it, depict a mythical tale of a fight between men and centaurs, which broke out at a wedding.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You may believe so, but it wasn't plunder. There are no 'forged' documents in evidence, the lack of original documents is not evidence of forgery. In retrospect we may know the Parthenon survived and Greece became an independent country. In Elgin's time it was possible that his actions were the best chance of survival of these artefacts. From an article advocating for the return of the marbles;

Elgin Marbles Restitution: The Case for Returning Them to Athens

A dissent from History Reclaimed's own line: why the ethical case for Elgin Marbles restitution outweighs retention, and why the Louvre escapes scrutiny.

historyreclaimed.co.uk

A more detailed discussion of the authenticity of the documents remaining and the legality thereof can be read here,

The Elgin Marbles: Who Owns Them Now And Should They Ever Be Returned To Greece? - Church Court Chambers

Alkan Shenyuz, a barrister with Church Court Chambers in London and a specialist in international law, summarises the key legal ...

churchcourtchambers.co.uk

In any case coming back to the thread; Trump would oppose the return, he is clearly a believer in possession justifying ownership, and the strong have the right of possession, viz Diego Garcia.

It's a perfect example of plunder.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump

I see so many comments from the Radical Left Morons and Lunatics that China and Russia are helping the "wonderful” Islamic Republic of Iran.
If they are, it's at a very low level, but I don't believe they are at all.
They have too much to lose, and we would know about it, and know about it very fast!
Thank you for your attention to this matter.

President DONALD J. TRUMP

 

[Andy_Ross]

Look what happened in Ohio since my last Rally, and I have another one today.
It’s The Golden Age of America! President
DONALD J. TRUMP

 

[Norman Alexander]

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump

I see so many comments from the Radical Left Morons and Lunatics that China and Russia are helping the "wonderful” Islamic Republic of Iran.
If they are, it's at a very low level, but I don't believe they are at all.
They have too much to lose, and we would know about it, and know about it very fast!
Thank you for your attention to this matter.

President DONALD J. TRUMP

Translation: Natalie hasn't told me anything, so it never happened.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Who do historical cultural artifacts belong to?
All of mankind.

Who should be the Steward for them ?
Whoever can keep them safe and provide easy access to the largest number of people.

No one should own great pieces of art or archeology - they should just make sure that they are preserved and can be studied and appreciated.
That should be more than enough reward.

 

[Dr.Sid]

Look what happened in Ohio since my last Rally, and I have another one today.
It’s The Golden Age of America! President
DONALD J. TRUMP

View attachment 76844

Graphs ? Numbers ? You really want to go there, Don ?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Who do historical cultural artifacts belong to?
All of mankind.

Who should be the Steward for them ?
Whoever can keep them safe and provide easy access to the largest number of people.

No one should own great pieces of art or archeology - they should just make sure that they are preserved and can be studied and appreciated.
That should be more than enough reward.

So ripping them off a building abd chopping them up is the thing to do?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

So ripping them off a building abd chopping them up is the thing to do?

Sounds not like a safe way to handle them, no.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Look what happened in Ohio since my last Rally, and I have another one today.
It’s The Golden Age of America! President
DONALD J. TRUMP

View attachment 76844

Oh poop. Dems nearly 10 points up across the board. And getting further up.

FiftyPlusOne - Generic Ballot Polls and Average for 2026

A comprehensive list of polls and polling averages for elections and politician approval.

fiftyplusone.news

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I don't follow what you mean about an exception.

The original comment was about statues of Columbus, and some people wanting removed because they don't think the European conquest of the Americas deserves heroic monuments.

The Elgin marbles aren't in the British museum as a monument to conquest. Arguably as a result of conquest, but they're not a symbolic celebration of it. And when they were in their original locations they weren't a monument to conquest either. Most of them, as I understand it, depict a mythical tale of a fight between men and centaurs, which broke out at a wedding.

I do know the history, thanks.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So ripping them off a building abd chopping them up is the thing to do?

You could use the marble to make a second Trafalgar monument.

Last time I was in London I spent a full five minutes waiting for the lions to roar. Didn't happen.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I do know the history, thanks.

I don't doubt it.

I just didn't get why you seemed puzzled that I thought the marbles were a different category of thing to Columbus statues. So far as I know Italy is not demanding all the Columbus statues back.

 

[Norman Alexander]

I don't doubt it.

I just didn't get why you seemed puzzled that I thought the marbles were a different category of thing to Columbus statues. So far as I know Italy is not demanding all the Columbus statues back.

Wouldn't that be the Spanish? Columbus was financed and dispatched by the Spanish royal family. So any spoils were theirs.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Wouldn't that be the Spanish? Columbus was financed and dispatched by the Spanish royal family. So any spoils were theirs.

Oh, great, so now we get a legal fight between the Spanish and the Italians to take back all of America's Columbus statues.