Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

[dann]

What would you say is the solution dann - to this issue and porn in general?

1) In post 6,435, I agreed with arthwollipot about this:

I totally agree that children should have access to "responsible and comprehensive education about sex and reproduction," and I will add that it should also be available on public service tv and on the internet. In some countries, I think it already is. In many others, it would probably be illegal.
However, where children should be getting sex ed is one thing. Where they do (or don't) actually get it IRL is another.
It's a fact that many parents and teachers are repressed bigots and thus unwilling and incapable of giving children responsible sex ed. It's also a fact that many children (curious as they are and should be) thus get their 'education' about sex from porn.

However, there is more to it than that:
2) Children learn at an early age that sex is shameful and embarrassing, which makes them resort to fantasies (whether outlived or not) of ways in which they can exhibit sexual behavior in ways that make them 'innocent', i.e. 'not guilty' of the sexual act. In an earlier post, I mentioned an example I had observed. In much older posts, I mentioned how incredibly often the word embarrassed appeared in Penthouse readers' letters.
Once this connection has been established in the psyche of people as a perversion (or 'kink' as arthwollipot would prefer to call it), I don't think there's an easy way to free oneself of it – even when one grows up and realizes cognitively that there isn't actually anything shameful or embarrassing about sex. The feeling is still there, and so is the need to overcome it – be it as fantasy or as role play.

3) In the sexual act, there is no inherent connection between sexual desire and shame/embarrassment. You can find porn with people having sex where the sexual act appears to be about two people pleasuring each other and enjoying each other without any element of subjugation, humiliation or violence. That would be the kind of porn that I would actually recommend parents and educators to use in sex ed – except that it might be illegal to do so in some countries. It would make it apparent for kids, when they encounter choking, slapping, humiliation, restraining etc. in porn or IRL, that it's something beyond healthy sexuality, that it's not an integral part of it. (The psychology of 'kinks' should also be explained to kids to make them understand why some people (have to) resort to that kind of behavior during sex, but I doubt that most parents and educators understand this themselves.)

4) Since the exhibition of sexual desire is still taboo and associated with shame and embarrassment, society has an odd attitude to porn of any kind and in some countries even to public nudity. (In other posts, I have poked fun at the attitude of Americans in this respect in comparison to Scandinavians and, even more so, to Germans.)
That is the cause of the peculiar dichotomy that porn stars are both acclaimed and disdained – often by the same people but in different contexts because the dichotomy is present in the minds of most people.

5) I wrote that "you can find porn with people having sex where the sexual act appears to be about two people pleasuring each other and enjoying each other without any element of subjugation, humiliation or violence." I assume that's also the case in gay porn. This is where I disagree with you, I think. I think gay porn may tend to include more fetishes not because homosexuality as such is inherently more prone to be 'kinky', but because the shame/embarrassment that's associated with heterosexuality in our societies is even worse when it comes to homosexuality, i.e. it's a product of the repression of sexual desire not of that desire in and of itself, be it straight or gay.

6) And yes, that would all have to change in order to rid human sexuality of choking, slapping, humiliation, restraining etc.
Religions like Christianity haven't helped.
Eve covers herself and lowers her head in shame in Rodin's Eve after the Fall. (Wikipedia)

 

[dann]

That's weird. When did kids mix up 'kink shaming' (you have x kink? gross) and 'having personal taste/boundaries' (it's fine that you have that kink but I don't. So no)
All else aside, they do need to know that they shouldn't stay in a relationship with someone that doesn't respect their boundaries.

40 lines of text, and this was the one that got to you?!

I think we might need to reconsider the idea that kink shaming is taboo… thoughts?

Those quotations were mostly about women's experiences with men who "use unbidden violence during sex," and your response is to say what the victims of that unbidden violence should do???
Come on, I can't believe you can't do better than that!

 

[Poem]

Whilst I mull over your post, can you explain:

5) I wrote that "you can find porn with people having sex where the sexual act appears to be about two people pleasuring each other and enjoying each other without any element of subjugation, humiliation or violence." I assume that's also the case in gay porn. This is where I disagree with you, I think. I think gay porn may tend to include more fetishes not because homosexuality as such is inherently more prone to be 'kinky', but because the shame/embarrassment that's associated with heterosexuality in our societies is even worse when it comes to homosexuality, i.e. it's a product of the repression of sexual desire not of that desire in and of itself, be it straight or gay.

What are you disagreeing with me on?

6) And yes, that would all have to change in order to rid human sexuality of choking, slapping, humiliation, restraining etc.

What is the 'that' that would need to change?

Religions like Christianity haven't helped.
Eve covers herself and lowers her head in shame in Rodin's Eve after the Fall. (Wikipedia)

Hmmm...could you be more specific about what that change would look like IRL?

 

[Poem]

1) In post 6,435, I agreed with arthwollipot about this:


However, there is more to it than that:
2) Children learn at an early age that sex is shameful and embarrassing, which makes them resort to fantasies (whether outlived or not) of ways in which they can exhibit sexual behavior in ways that make them 'innocent', i.e. 'not guilty' of the sexual act. In an earlier post, I mentioned an example I had observed. In much older posts, I mentioned how incredibly often the word embarrassed appeared in Penthouse readers' letters.
Once this connection has been established in the psyche of people as a perversion (or 'kink' as arthwollipot would prefer to call it), I don't think there's an easy way to free oneself of it – even when one grows up and realizes cognitively that there isn't actually anything shameful or embarrassing about sex. The feeling is still there, and so is the need to overcome it – be it as fantasy or as role play.

I agree that there isn't anything to be shameful of per se, but there is huge complexity here isn't there? We all agree that the sexual urge needs taming. I am not totally clear what you are suggesting.

3) In the sexual act, there is no inherent connection between sexual desire and shame/embarrassment. You can find porn with people having sex where the sexual act appears to be about two people pleasuring each other and enjoying each other without any element of subjugation, humiliation or violence. That would be the kind of porn that I would actually recommend parents and educators to use in sex ed – except that it might be illegal to do so in some countries. It would make it apparent for kids, when they encounter choking, slapping, humiliation, restraining etc. in porn or IRL, that it's something beyond healthy sexuality, that it's not an integral part of it. (The psychology of 'kinks' should also be explained to kids to make them understand why some people (have to) resort to that kind of behavior during sex, but I doubt that most parents and educators understand this themselves.)

Surely not explicit content though (to kids)?

4) Since the exhibition of sexual desire is still taboo and associated with shame and embarrassment, society has an odd attitude to porn of any kind and in some countries even to public nudity. (In other posts, I have poked fun at the attitude of Americans in this respect in comparison to Scandinavians and, even more so, to Germans.)
That is the cause of the peculiar dichotomy that porn stars are both acclaimed and disdained – often by the same people but in different contexts because the dichotomy is present in the minds of most people.

I am confused by your pov dann. Shame and embarrassment in one context, but not the least in terms of what is easily available online. Perhaps you could say a bit more?

 

[sackett]

Since when do we all agree that the sexual urge needs taming? Dang, when I was a young
feller trying to convince them gals that I was a presentable male specimen, the ole sex drive
almost always seemed to be parked, locked, and the 'mergency brake on.

Almost, I said. One time or another, it ran all right. We opened the throttle, but never needed the choke.

 

[Lithrael]

40 lines of text, and this was the one that got to you?!

Those quotations were mostly about women's experiences with men who "use unbidden violence during sex," and your response is to say what the victims of that unbidden violence should do???
Come on, I can't believe you can't do better than that!

...What? Is it victim blaming, to say that if your partner is unapologetically abusing you, you should leave? I was just trying to say that if a guy is going 'it's hurtful to me if you don't let me do my kink on you' he's not oppressed, he's an ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

What I was responding to when I wrote that post was the story starting with "He claimed it was his kink and that I had to go along with it." And I was saying, that guy was being an ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. Because there's no such thing as 'it's my kink so you have to.'

 

[Foster Zygote]

We all agree that the sexual urge needs taming.

To what extent? I think most of us here would agree that sex needs to meet two conditions to be morally acceptable.

1. Everyone involved must be fully consenting.
2. Everyone involved must be a legal adult.

Outside of this, whatever happens between consenting adults is their own business, and should not be shamed, nor restricted beyond the aforementioned two rules. No other taming of sexual behavior is necessary, or even justified.

 

[arthwollipot]

I know that 50 Shades ..., which I assume is at what you would call 'the shallow end of the pool', enjoys some popularity beyond the clientele of fetish clubs.

No. 50 Shades is not in the pool at all. 50 Shades is not kink, it is abuse. It is very poorly regarded in the BDSM and kink community because of the extremely poor and harmful way it portrays a dysfunctional relationship.

Breath play!!! What a silly euphemism for what is actually happening!

If you want to be taken seriously, you should start learning the language.

Am I right in assuming that you understand that young people may stumble on choking (or as you would like to call it: pretend choking) in ordinary (or 'vanilla') porn? Do you understand that they may get to watch choking in porn without looking for or wanting to watch choking porn?

Again, we get the claim that children are accidentally stumbling across porn. If they actively go looking for porn, then yes, they may see a scene where a man puts his hand on or near the woman's neck.

 

[Joe Random]

No. 50 Shades is not in the pool at all. 50 Shades is not kink, it is abuse. It is very poorly regarded in the BDSM and kink community because of the extremely poor and harmful way it portrays a dysfunctional relationship.

Yeah, when you learn that 50 Shades didn't come from the kink scene, but rather started out as a Twilight fan-fic it makes far more sense how disconnected it was from the subject it pretended to portray.

 

[arthwollipot]

Yeah, when you learn that 50 Shades didn't come from the kink scene, but rather started out as a Twilight fan-fic it makes far more sense how disconnected it was from the subject it pretended to portray.

There's plenty of good kinky fanfic out there. 50 Shades is a terrible one.

 

[dann]

...What? Is it victim blaming, to say that if your partner is unapologetically abusing you, you should leave? I was just trying to say that if a guy is going 'it's hurtful to me if you don't let me do my kink on you' he's not oppressed, he's an ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.
What I was responding to when I wrote that post was the story starting with "He claimed it was his kink and that I had to go along with it." And I was saying, that guy was being an ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. Because there's no such thing as 'it's my kink so you have to.'

Your new post has a completely different focus. This is what you wrote and what I criticized:

That's weird. When did kids mix up 'kink shaming' (you have x kink? gross) and 'having personal taste/boundaries' (it's fine that you have that kink but I don't. So no)
All else aside, they do need to know that they shouldn't stay in a relationship with someone that doesn't respect their boundaries.

You focused on what the victims should do instead of on what the abusers shouldn't do!
Yes, of course the victims of abuse shouldn't stay with their abusers. But the victims aren't the ones who are doing anything wrong in the first place. The abusers are. The women didn't go looking for somebody to choke them. The choking came as an extremely unpleasant shock to them. The chokers, not the chokees, are the ones who should be told and taught that their behavior is wrong. And porn doesn't do that. On the contrary, it normalizes the abusive behavior.
Your fist post reminded me of the 'slut shaming' criticism of women telling them that the way to stop being the victims of sexual assault is to stop dressing the way they do.

And leaving the abuser doesn't stop him from abusing, unfortunately. He's already on his way to his next victim. Telling those victims not to stay with the abusers doesn't put a stop to the current 'rape culture', which is the theme of this thread.
Porn makes this kind of abuse seem like business as usual, which is why abusers refer to it to prove their point. My links to articles about this fact have been ignored by all of you, so far. And instead of criticizing the kind of porn that abusers refer to as justification of their abuse, people in the thread are busy defending that kind of porn against criticism because it aligns with their 'kinks,' which they are busy explaining away as perfectly harmless breath play instead of making an effort to try to actually understand those 'kinks'.
In the reddit link, at least there were people who were able to 'connect the dots'.

 

[dann]

Yeah, when you learn that 50 Shades didn't come from the kink scene, but rather started out as a Twilight fan-fic it makes far more sense how disconnected it was from the subject it pretended to portray.

There's plenty of good kinky fanfic out there. 50 Shades is a terrible one.

It sounds as if the kink connoisseurs might at least agree that 50 Shades is an element of rape culture even though they are entirely unable and/or unwilling to acknowledge that choke porn is.

 

[arthwollipot]

It sounds as if the kink connoisseurs might at least agree that 50 Shades is an element of rape culture even though they are entirely unable and/or unwilling to acknowledge that choke porn is.

No, its just ◊◊◊◊◊◊ fanfic that doesn't portray kink very well.

 

[dann]

Whilst I mull over your post, can you explain:
What are you disagreeing with me on?

In some fairly recent posts, you seemed to say that homosexuality was somehow caused by porn. I only skimmed those posts, so I may have been wrong about that.

What is the 'that' that would need to change?

The notion that sexual urges are shameful, something to be embarrassed about, and thus something that one needs to come up with excuses for – to oneself and to others. It's what drives sexual urges into the realm of kink fantasies, and it's what drives people to abuse others sexually. (By the way, it's not as if our societies find it shameful to coerce people into all kinds of things they don't really want to do in all kinds of contexts, and it's not as if that condition is seen as something those societies should be ashamed of.)

Hmmm...could you be more specific about what that change would look like IRL?

Why the ◊◊◊◊ does Eve 'cover herself and lower her head in shame'?
Why the ◊◊◊◊ are children as well as adults told that this is what Eve should do?
It's the primordial example of 'slut shaming'! It's the 'original sin' of Christianity and of all societies basing their morality on Christianity.

 

[dann]

I agree that there isn't anything to be shameful of per se, but there is huge complexity here isn't there? We all agree that the sexual urge needs taming. I am not totally clear what you are suggesting.

Complexity, sure, but not as complex as some people want to make it out to be. The difficulty is mainly that people aren't even trying to understand the whole thing and least of all their own minds. Instead, they are busy coming up with excuses for their personal kinks and unwilling to try to seriously analyze where they come from.

As for the sexual urge, it doesn't really need taming. The idea that sexual urges are incredibly dangerous and need to be reined in because giving in to them will destroy the world we live in is a major part of the problem. It's the repression of those urges that causes most of the calamities. Choking (or choking fantasies or choking porn) is not a sexual urge. It's a perversion of the sexual urge.

Surely not explicit content though (to kids)?

Why not? I already posted about a Danish teacher who told her students to bring the porn mags that their parents were hiding under the mattress or in that old suitcase in the closet. It was possible in Denmark at the time. IIRC, there were no repercussions for her – as a teacher or in any other way. I don't know if it's still possible. In most countries, it probably isn't.
She knew (as we all know) that kids know about that stuff – even more so now that porn magazines have more or less died out and been replaced by online videos. Kids don't have to go through stuff in their parent's closet. They can just take a look at their parents' search history.
I don't think that seeing a photo or a clip of an actual penis being inserted into an actual vagina harms children. I do think that telling them that it is an awful sin harms them. Telling them it's a sin is probably allowed or even encouraged in most countries.

I am confused by your pov dann. Shame and embarrassment in one context, but not the least in terms of what is easily available online. Perhaps you could say a bit more?

I could and I will, but I don't know what you mean:
"Shame and embarrassment in one context," Shame and embarrassment about what and in which context?
"but not the least in terms of what is easily available online." What is the thing that's easily available online that you're talking about?

 

[dann]

No, its just ◊◊◊◊◊◊ fanfic that doesn't portray kink very well.

With your euphemism breath play, you have already shown that you don't want kink to be portrayed well.

 

[dann]

No. 50 Shades is not in the pool at all. 50 Shades is not kink, it is abuse. It is very poorly regarded in the BDSM and kink community because of the extremely poor and harmful way it portrays a dysfunctional relationship.

I don't consider the BDSM and kink communities to be the authority on anything.

If you want to be taken seriously, you should start learning the language.

I don't give a ◊◊◊◊ about being taken seriously, and I don't give a ◊◊◊◊ about learning your euphemistic terms. If anything, they're what helps you stay in the denial you're in when you call choking breath play.

Again, we get the claim that children are accidentally stumbling across porn. If they actively go looking for porn, then yes, they may see a scene where a man puts his hand on or near the woman's neck.

I already criticized your false claim that children have to "actively go looking for porn" to find it, but you ignored it.
Your denial is grotesque: "a man puts his hand on or near (!!!) the woman's neck."
I don't think anybody buys your attempts to whitewash choking in otherwise 'vanilla' porn.

 

[dann]

To what extent? I think most of us here would agree that sex needs to meet two conditions to be morally acceptable.

1. Everyone involved must be fully consenting.
2. Everyone involved must be a legal adult.

Outside of this, whatever happens between consenting adults is their own business, and should not be shamed, nor restricted beyond the aforementioned two rules. No other taming of sexual behavior is necessary, or even justified.

I'm not sure that I agree. It depends on your definition of fully consenting. What exactly is the difference between consenting and fully consenting?
Besides, an awful lot of things that happen "between consenting adults" isn't actually "their own business."
It's often somebody else's business. Literally!

 

[Darat]

Nothing is the difference between fully consenting and consenting, fully is being used as an emphasis not to change the meaning in that expression.

 

[dann]

Nothing is the difference between fully consenting and consenting, fully is being used as an emphasis not to change the meaning in that expression.

That is fairly obvious. What I'd like to know is what consenting but not fully consenting is supposed to mean.
To be explicit about what I'm getting at: Consent can be coerced.
This is what Google says about "coerced consent":

Coerced consent means agreeing to something under pressure, manipulation, threats, or intimidation, which means the agreement is not valid or not truly voluntary. [1, 2, 3]

Key Characteristics

• Lack of Free Will: A person says "yes" only to escape discomfort, guilt, emotional manipulation, or fear of negative consequences. [1, 2]
• Invalid Consent: True consent must be freely given, enthusiastic, ongoing, and specific. Coercion strips away the ability to choose freely. [1, 2, 3]
• Common Tactics:
  • Incessant badgering or guilt trips
  • Emotional manipulation or gaslighting
  • Threats (such as damaging a career, sharing private photos, or ending a relationship)
  • Using a power imbalance or physical intimidation [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]

Contexts

• Sexual Health & Relationships: Coerced sexual consent is a form of sexual assault. If someone is pressured, guilted, or forced into sexual activity after saying no or showing reluctance, the interaction is non-consensual. Learn more via the National Domestic Violence Hotline or Healthline.
• Legal & Contracts: In law, a contract or agreement signed under duress, fraud, or coercion is generally considered void or voidable because the party did not act of their own free will. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Porn is full of coerced consent!
Caught shoplifters, threats to reveal secrets, being in debt or similar circumstances, in need a place to stay, in need of a ride, and also non-consent, e.g. having sex with somebody other than the person you think you're having sex with.