Fixing America

[Ziggurat]

For one, a billionaire not paying a dime in income tax, while working families cannot avail themselves of the same sort of relief.

Working families can avail themselves of relief that billionaires cannot. Far more poor people pay zero income tax than rich people. And I don’t really have a problem with even a billionaire not paying income tax in a year when they’re losing money, not making it.

Anyone who thinks the wealthy don't work the system, don't push the envelope, they're either naive or cynical.

Do you think poor people never push the envelope? Don’t be naive indeed. There’s a form of income tax cheating that many poor and working class people do that is so common and accepted that there’s even a serious proposal to make it legal.

I'm not your dancing monkey.

You don’t have to tell me. But I still get to ask. And in the absence of an answer, your complaints about the current tax code don’t mean very much to me.

 

[Resume]

Working families can avail themselves of relief that billionaires cannot.

Those poor billionaires! How will they cope?

Far more poor people pay zero income tax than rich people.

Good! How it should be.

And I don’t really have a problem with even a billionaire not paying income tax in a year when they’re losing money, not making it.

Do you really think Trump really had those offsetting losses the years he didn't pay income tax? He pays tax accounts millions to make sure.

Do you think poor people never push the envelope? Don’t be naive indeed.

Sure, they have accounting staffs cooking their books just like the oligarchs. JFC!

There’s a form of income tax cheating that many poor and working class people do that is so common and accepted that there’s even a serious proposal to make it legal.

Yeah, the working poor are getting are getting over. You can tell by the cars the drive, the mansions where they reside.

You don’t have to tell me. But I still get to ask.

I gave you one example. You can ask in one hand and . . .

And in the absence of an answer, your complaints about the current tax code don’t mean very much to me.

I did give an answer, but you want me dance further, and I don't want to be forced. Your defense of ethnically challenged billionaires, and the corrupt president means something to me.

 

[Ziggurat]

Do you really think Trump really had those offsetting losses the years he didn't pay income tax?

Yes. That’s how it works. Do you have any evidence that he didn’t?

He pays tax accounts millions to make sure.

If he did, he vastly overpaid.

Sure, they have accounting staffs cooking their books just like the oligarchs. JFC!

You don’t need accountants to cheat on your taxes. In fact, it can be easier to cheat than to file correctly. Do you not know this?

Yeah, the working poor are getting are getting over.

Cheating on your taxes is cheating on your taxes, whether the amount is a little or a lot. You set the standard as being the law, not me.

I did give an answer, but you want me dance further, and I don't want to be forced.

I’m not forcing you. I’m not capable of forcing you.

Your defense of ethnically challenged billionaires, and the corrupt president means something to me.

No need to bring race into this. Seriously though, I don’t think I defended anyone. I defended the idea that you shouldn’t have to pay income tax when you have no net income. You have not actually argued that this principle is wrong.

 

[Resume]

Yes. That’s how it works. Do you have any evidence that he didn’t?

He is a convicted fraudster; he defrauded his charity for crissakes. He consistently cheated his contractors, with hundreds of liens filed against him. He is a cheat and a felon. I give him no benefit of doubt.

If he did, he vastly overpaid.

Not when they save him tens of millions of dollars. Jesus Christ, you can't be serious here

You don’t need accountants to cheat on your taxes.

You do when you need to cheat seriously.

In fact, it can be easier to cheat than to file correctly. Do you not know this?

I've never cheated so I don't know. Would you like to give us some tips?

Cheating on your taxes is cheating on your taxes, whether the amount is a little or a lot. You set the standard as being the law, not me.

If you think the sentence you receive will be the same, you are sadly misinformed.

.Seriously though, I don’t think I defended anyone.

Yes you have. You've done it here.

I defended the idea that you shouldn’t have to pay income tax when you have no net income.

Yes, if you have no net income; if you pay accountants to hide your income, or cook the books on your losses, you're a fraudster, a crook. If you're attempting to claim this doesn't happen with wealthy individuals, I can't take you seriously. If you think the fraudster in chief hasn't had his books cooked, you are delusional. He is a convicted criminal, a fraudster and a cheat, whether you acknowledge it or not.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

No, it's reality. The concept of fairness is subjective when it comes to this subject. It can become objective with an actual consensus, devoid of undue influence from bad actors. Which is impossible.

Donald Trump paid zero taxes for ten years in the 20 teens and 2020.*

It's only illegal if you get caught. I'll bet you know people who push the envelope when it comes to deductions which won't trigger an audit. Business vehicles and home office deductions are often culprits. Side ventures, known as the "Hobby Loss Rule" where you write off losses to offset your W2 income is another one. Legal, as long as you don't consistently press it, right up to the point when you do.

Yes, the problem is with the tax code because it cannot keep up with those that lack ethics, or worse, find it enjoyable to work the system.

It has to be changed by those that are willing to change it. All my ideas like, say, a graduated flat tax would be a no-go with the current legislature, and likely any in the future with the manner in which we allow virtual unlimited money in the election process.

I never said you did.


* I am referring only to federal income tax.

Rich people love flat taxes, because they're even more regressive than current tax regimes.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Rich people love flat taxes, because they're even more regressive than current tax regimes.

REALLY rich people simply don't pay taxes at all.

 

[Ziggurat]

He is a convicted fraudster

That's not evidence that he committed tax fraud. And supposing he did, then we already have a remedy for it. Lastly, this isn't about Trump, this was supposedly about the billionaire class and what they owe in taxes.

Not when they save him tens of millions of dollars.

But they didn't, not in 2020 anyways.

I've never cheated so I don't know. Would you like to give us some tips?

You just answered your own question: tips. That's how. If you work at a job that gets cash tips (mostly lower income jobs), then just don't report those earnings. People have been doing that for decades. And it's tax fraud.

Yes, if you have no net income; if you pay accountants to hide your income, or cook the books on your losses, you're a fraudster, a crook. If you're attempting to claim this doesn't happen with wealthy individuals, I can't take you seriously.

I didn't claim that. That's a straw man, knock it off or we can't have a serious discussion. Of course some wealthy people are tax frauds. Just like some poor people are tax frauds. Nobody here is defending tax fraud. That's not the question. The question is, what should the tax code look like, and what do people owe? Are you conceding then that if a billionare made zero net income in a particular year, he should pay zero income tax that year?

 

[ZiprHead]

Don’t be naive indeed. There’s a form of income tax cheating that many poor and working class people do that is so common and accepted that there’s even a serious proposal to make it legal.

Examples?

 

[Ziggurat]

Examples?

One of the simplest and most common forms of tax fraud among low-income taxpayers is not reporting (or under-reporting) cash tips. As I said in post 227.

 

[ahhell]

Until recently I always tipped in cash in order to facilitate tax fraud.

Don't forget about working under the table, that's a common form of tax fraud that benefits both parties, in the short term anyway.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The thing about not reporting tips, though, is that income doesn't figure into their future Social Security calculations. They're saving today and losing tomorrow. And therefore while the nation misses out on revenue from the untaxed tips it also doesn't have to shell out so much to those people in future SS payments. Swings and roundabouts...

If I were cynical I'd suggest that perhaps one factor behind a push to not tax tips is to shrink Social Security in the present by getting less funding, and in the future by distributing less. While at the same time trying to appeal to voters who work tipped jobs.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

I wonder the Venn diagram of those who criticize Trump for limiting his tax liability and those who take deductions on their own tax returns.

That's like wondering whether there's any overlap between those who take deductions (such as the standard deduction, available to anyone) and those who were breathing as they filled out the forms.

You'd see precisely the same overlap between those who take deductions and those who praise Trump for his corruption.

Wondering about matters that cannot possibly inform the discussion in any way is juvenile.

No, it isn't. This is juvenile argumentation. I remember this sort of apologetic in high school debate class. It was stupid then and it's stupid now.

 

[ahhell]

I'

The thing about not reporting tips, though, is that income doesn't figure into their future Social Security calculations. They're saving today and losing tomorrow. And therefore while the nation misses out on revenue from the untaxed tips it also doesn't have to shell out so much to those people in future SS payments. Swings and roundabouts...

If I were cynical I'd suggest that perhaps one factor behind a push to not tax tips is to shrink Social Security in the present by getting less funding, and in the future by distributing less. While at the same time trying to appeal to voters who work tipped jobs.

Such optimism about SS, its cute. Its running out regardless of tipped income. Also, trump isn't that smart, it was straight just pandering to tipped workers, he's not thinking beyond that and nobody smart enough to think that far ahead had even mentioned it prior to Trump.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Such optimism about SS, its cute. Its running out regardless of tipped income.

Yes, but an additional leak won't help a sinking vessel.

Also, trump isn't that smart, it was straight just pandering to tipped workers, he's not thinking beyond that and nobody smart enough to think that far ahead had even mentioned it prior to Trump.

Trump isn't smart, but some of the oligarch vultures who surround him are.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

REALLY rich people simply don't pay taxes at all.

True that but flat tax regimes makes it easier.

 

[dirtywick]

Yes, but an additional leak won't help a sinking vessel.


Trump isn't smart, but some of the oligarch vultures who surround him are.

they have an agenda that involved weakening the federal government and privatizing public programs in such a way that they end up with the wealth from them. check out people like rick scott who defraud medicare and want to privatize what's left. look into trump accounts, the games the tech ceos play to get your 401k as part of their ipo. these giant public contracts are being awarded to these tech companies that are close with trump while they invest in their stocks.

i mean, look what they're doing with the department of war, the venezuelan oil, the insider trading on the conflict in the middle east they're causing. look at their relationship with gambling apps and prediction markets, and crypto.

trump is an idiot, but he's really good at stealing money. there's constantly an angle to everything they do, from selling steaks to watches to knives, it's a series of scams.

but yeah this is probably the one thing

 

[ZiprHead]

One of the simplest and most common forms of tax fraud among low-income taxpayers is not reporting (or under-reporting) cash tips. As I said in post 227.

It's still not that easy or simple.

Employer and other payor responsibilities​

An employer has several responsibilities related to employee tip income, including recordkeeping and reporting requirements, collecting taxes on tips, filing certain forms and paying or depositing taxes.

Employers are required to retain employee tip reports. Employers are also required to withhold taxes (including income taxes and the employee's share of Social Security tax and Medicare tax) based upon wages and tip income received by the employee and must deposit these taxes. In addition, employers are required to pay the employer share of Social Security and Medicare taxes based on the total wages paid to tipped employees as well as the reported tip income. The employer reports this information to the IRS on the appropriate forms.

Tips reported to the employer by the employee must be included in Box 1 (Wages, tips, other compensation), Box 5 (Medicare wages and tips), and Box 7 (Social security tips) of the employee's Form W-2. Enter the amount of any uncollected Social Security tax and Medicare tax in Box 12 of Form W-2. Employers must separately report the total amount of cash tips reported to the employer on Form W-2 (Box 12, code TP) and include the applicable Treasury Tipped Occupation Code(s) in Box 14b. For more information, see the General Instructions for Forms W-2 and W-3.

Other payors (including businesses paying independent contractors) must separately report tip income paid in the course of a trade or business to payees on Forms 1099-NEC, 1099-MISC and 1099-K, and include the applicable Treasury Tipped Occupation Code(s). Notice 2025-62 and Notice 2025-69 and provide transition relief from these requirements for 2025.

Employers must report income tax withheld, Social Security and Medicare taxes withheld from employee wages, and the employer share of Social Security and Medicare taxes on Form 941, Employer's Quarterly Federal Tax Return. Employers must also deposit these taxes pursuant to federal tax deposit requirements.

Most employers must also file Form 940, Employer's Annual Federal Unemployment (FUTA) Tax Return, and deposit those taxes. Only the employer pays FUTA tax as it is not withheld from the employee's wages.

Tip recordkeeping and reporting | Internal Revenue Service

Provides information and resources dealing with reporting tip income for all industries that deal with tipping of employees.

www.irs.gov

 

[ahhell]

It's very simple and easy if the tips in cash.

 

[dirtywick]

the whole system exists to serve evading taxes. this already low paying dead end but essential job would be even worse if they had to report all their earnings and at the same time restaurants pretend they're employing a bunch of people at minimum wage and customers get lower prices on entertainment. it's not taxed by design as a way the industry functions and the "tax fraud" is basically a necessity for the people doing those jobs, no tax on tips is already something that was going on.

the no tax on overtime thing was also not that impressive in practice if you're not a complete workaholic tbh