Cont: Electric Vehicles II

[Darat]

As I said it is the already better off that can reap the benefit of cheap charging at home - outside of London the cramped streets that are the country's legacy housing that is more than often the cheapest housing in an area, it means the poor can't benefit from cheap charging or reduced costs associated with an electric car.

 

[Rolfe]

The cost of public charging compared to home charging is a real issue, and as you say, it's the less well off who are disadvantaged. I don't know what to do about that. But it is still possible in very many cases for someone in a terraced house or a flat to run an EV and benefit from the other reduced costs. At worst, they're paying a similar price for their electricity per mile as they would for petrol.

 

[Dabop]

These are springing up in streets in the older parts of Sydney as an example of local and state governments together doing the right thing

Like many older parts of the UK, these old terrace houses have no offstreet parking at all usually, but EV takeup is still going strong in them...
Most current EVs can need only charging once or twice a week at a fast charger for less than 20 minutes (although the new BYD 'Flash' Mega chargers are sub 6 minutes to do 300-400km worth of charge) but these street chargers are only 7kw 'slow' chargers, and they are all 'EV only' parking- with fines for those 'ICEing' them... BIG fines lol


Many councils have taken advantage in such areas to install 'street side charging'- usually starting with areas where the residents apply to the council- they install them 'as needed ' atm, but it soon may be done as a 'every light pole gets a slow charger' rollout throughout that council area (Paddington and Annandale are both looking at doing so)
This one below is a 'dual outlet' charger, so can do two at once, if this becomes insufficient there are 'bollard' style ones that could be spaced between lightpoles with minimal disruption or cost to install them (literally slice a slit in the concrete and bury an armoured cable in with a quickdry cement refilling afterwards from the nearest lightpole...)

Of course its only the older cities that have this issue here, blocks of flats etc have been required by law here to provide sufficient off street parking to cover all residents since the 1970's, and most of those are already installing EV charger in them as required (assuming they don't preemptively install them- flats that have chargers get better rents and higher occupancy rates than those without, especially in high demand places like the cities)- indeed most real estate agents list EV chargers in their listings these days...


Seems it not THAT bloody hard to do lol

 

[Darat]

The cost of public charging compared to home charging is a real issue, and as you say, it's the less well off who are disadvantaged. I don't know what to do about that. But it is still possible in very many cases for someone in a terraced house or a flat to run an EV and benefit from the other reduced costs. At worst, they're paying a similar price for their electricity per mile as they would for petrol.

Currently it seems it is a case of leaving it to the "market" to fix. Leaving it to the market "to fix" won't work, it needs a national infrastructure roll out, all streets need to have charging points, it is certainly in our wit to be able to sort out which household to charge for the electricity no matter which you are plugged into. Until then usage will be limited to those better off folk.

 

[Rolfe]

Yes, it needs government action.

 

[Darat]

...snip...
Seems it not THAT bloody hard to do lol

There is nothing inherently unsolveable for the UK but is about having the political will to make it happen.

Also sadly in the UK historically there have never been legally mandate parking places to number of flats or even houses, some local authorities do impose some restrictions but usually the developers manage to get away with reducing the number! But at least things are changing there are some regulations now about providing charging points. If you are a nerd have a look here: https://www.new-builds.co.uk/blog/parking-transport-new-build-developments On that site they claim that the average parking spaces in new builds are: 1.1–1.5!

 

[Dabop]

Well the Ausgrid ones here cost barely anything to charge at- they ARE a slow charger after all lol (it varies depending on time of day for EVX/Ausgrid, but overnight charging is 35c an hour (which is actually quite cheap- the offpeak rate for homes here from the same supplier (Ausgrid) is only 30c a kWh (A Tesla charger for example costs 55cper kwh here, so you are less than 2/3 the price compared to a fast charger...)
So the overall charging cost is only marginally higher than home charging, far cheaper than fast charging, and a hell of a lot cheaper than petrol or diesel!!!!

Re your link- sounds like the local governments there has been particularly lax re newbuilds (corruption??? developer bribes perhaps???)
Guess (as usual) the taxpayers will be left to clean up the problems...
:-(

 

[acbytesla]

Here's the thing that a lot of things that people are oblivious to.

Yes we should increase charging infrastructure so the poor can benefit from EVs as well. But it benefits the poor even if they still rely on petrol for transportation. Because increasing the number of people using solar and using EVs reduces demand pressure on fossil fuels.

 

[Dabop]

To a certain extent that's true, but oil is so dependant on many external factors on its price (coughs the current war for example in Iran) and its increasing scarcity (many fields are already dependent on fracking and the like to get production levels up to where they were previously unneeded- which adds to the production cost over what it was previously) with increasing costs- don't expect a 40% demand drop to equate to a 40% price drop...
(and that's ignoring the tendencies of big companies to screw over the consumers pricewise- how many times have you seen a major drop in crude prices seeing pump prices barely move- and oil companies announcing record profits hmmmm????)

It's not as if EVs are a 'luxury' item any more (well in most countries)- your basic entry level 'commuter cars' for example here in Australia start at around $24k-$27k Au, a good second hand car (ie one with a good few years of life left in it, although with increasing repair costs) costs about half that... and their ICE equivalents are actually slightly more expensive now!!!
So well within the 'acceptable price bracket' of even those on a lower wage (with the minimum wage here being $26.44 an hour/$1004.90 a week, paying off the base models like the Geely EX2 at $27k or the Atto 1 at $24k is under 27 weeks/6 months of wages required for full payment (obviously that's not achievable as you can't spend 100% of your wages on car payments, but its a good metric for 'affordability'- the last time it was that low was back in the 1970's here lol
For example the minimum wage in 1970 was $51.35 a week, and the cheapest new car was $1278 for a Fiat- meaning it took 24.8 weeks worth of minimum wage to pay off...

And the safety and driver assist features are worlds apart- both of those 'base' models come in Australia with 'driver assist' ie level 2 'self driving' ie lane assist, distance maintaining and auto braking in an emergency as well as multiple airbags and 'passenger protection cell' inbuilt... The Fiat had.... um seatbelts... (and precious little else either in terms of 'creature comforts' lol- no A/C. no electric windows- hell even a AM only radio wasn't an optional extra from the factory!!!!

 

[acbytesla]

To a certain extent that's true, but oil is so dependant on many external factors on its price (coughs the current war for example in Iran) and its increasing scarcity (many fields are already dependent on fracking and the like to get production levels up to where they were previously unneeded- which adds to the production cost over what it was previously) with increasing costs- don't expect a 40% demand drop to equate to a 40% price drop...
(and that's ignoring the tendencies of big companies to screw over the consumers pricewise- how many times have you seen a major drop in crude prices seeing pump prices barely move- and oil companies announcing record profits hmmmm????)

It's not as if EVs are a 'luxury' item any more (well in most countries)- your basic entry level 'commuter cars' for example here in Australia start at around $24k-$27k Au, a good second hand car (ie one with a good few years of life left in it, although with increasing repair costs) costs about half that... and their ICE equivalents are actually slightly more expensive now!!!
So well within the 'acceptable price bracket' of even those on a lower wage (with the minimum wage here being $26.44 an hour/$1004.90 a week, paying off the base models like the Geely EX2 at $27k or the Atto 1 at $24k is under 27 weeks/6 months of wages required for full payment (obviously that's not achievable as you can't spend 100% of your wages on car payments, but its a good metric for 'affordability'- the last time it was that low was back in the 1970's here lol
For example the minimum wage in 1970 was $51.35 a week, and the cheapest new car was $1278 for a Fiat- meaning it took 24.8 weeks worth of minimum wage to pay off...

And the safety and driver assist features are worlds apart- both of those 'base' models come in Australia with 'driver assist' ie level 2 'self driving' ie lane assist, distance maintaining and auto braking in an emergency as well as multiple airbags and 'passenger protection cell' inbuilt... The Fiat had.... um seatbelts... (and precious little else either in terms of 'creature comforts' lol- no A/C. no electric windows- hell even a AM only radio wasn't an optional extra from the factory!!!!

I agree that EVs are becoming more affordable with the exception of the US. But, I stand by my point. The number one reason that prices rise is supply and demand. The more EVs are renewables are added, the less demand there is, the greater the downward pressure on prices.

 

[Ranb]

I saw the Slate EV pickup in an ad and thought it might be good for me. But it can only be had with a short bed. I need one that has a 6.5 foot bed minimum.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Well, according to Reuters now BYD and Geely both announced EV batteries that can fast charge at 2.25 MEGA watts. You'd need another battery that charges from the solar panels, and then can dump it in your EV.

Of course, they didn't say anything about efficiency, which is about 99% for lithium batteries in ideal conditions, and drops significantly if you're in Canada or Sweden in winter. (Internal resistance rises.) But even at 99%, it means 1% lost as heat. So that's 22.5KW turned into heat in the battery itself. That's like 15 of the most powerful space heaters, or about 10 electric kettles. In a small enclosed space. That's a furnace.

So that'll be fun to learn how they keep it from bursting into flames. Even water cooling (which they do mention) can only go so far. Or if the battery somehow survives, what kind of carpet they put in the car so it doesn't ignite when that much heat is produced right under it. Asbestos?

Source: https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/chinas-high-speed-race-fast-charging-evs-2026-09-24/

 

[Ranb]

So that'll be fun to learn how they keep it from bursting into flames. Even water cooling (which they do mention) can only go so far. Or if the battery somehow survives, what kind of carpet they put in the car so it doesn't ignite when that much heat is produced right under it. Asbestos?

Source: https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/chinas-high-speed-race-fast-charging-evs-2026-09-24/

I suppose they might limit charging rate after so many minutes to reduce battery temperature.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I suppose they might limit charging rate after so many minutes to reduce battery temperature.

They do mention using AI to monitor the temperature and throttling it in the article, but I doubt they could still maintain that 5 minutes from 10% to 70% claim if it instantly went into throttle mode. A bench-top electric metalworking furnace goes to 500 degrees Celsius in 3 to 10 minutes in the pre-heating phase, depending on the model. And we're talking the ones that take only up to 9% or so of that wattage getting there in 3 minutes.

 

[acbytesla]

Well, according to Reuters now BYD and Geely both announced EV batteries that can fast charge at 2.25 MEGA watts. You'd need another battery that charges from the solar panels, and then can dump it in your EV.

Of course, they didn't say anything about efficiency, which is about 99% for lithium batteries in ideal conditions, and drops significantly if you're in Canada or Sweden in winter. (Internal resistance rises.) But even at 99%, it means 1% lost as heat. So that's 22.5KW turned into heat in the battery itself. That's like 15 of the most powerful space heaters, or about 10 electric kettles. In a small enclosed space. That's a furnace.

So that'll be fun to learn how they keep it from bursting into flames. Even water cooling (which they do mention) can only go so far. Or if the battery somehow survives, what kind of carpet they put in the car so it doesn't ignite when that much heat is produced right under it. Asbestos?

Source: https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/chinas-high-speed-race-fast-charging-evs-2026-09-24/

I'd be skeptical of that. Nevertheless as you mentioned that comes with problems, such as what do you do with the heat. If they were fast charging a fully discharged 100KWhr battery pack at 2 megawatt (I rounded to make the math easier,.) that would mean you would charge in 3 minutes. That heat has to go somewhere. AI can only help so much.

 

[Here_to_learn]

I'd be skeptical of that. Nevertheless as you mentioned that comes with problems, such as what do you do with the heat. If they were fast charging a fully discharged 100KWhr battery pack at 2 megawatt (I rounded to make the math easier,.) that would mean you would charge in 3 minutes. That heat has to go somewhere. AI can only help so much.

But will it be a problem? It's only 3 minutes. If you have 500kg of battery, and put 22kW of heat into that for 3 minutes, I don't think that will cause any challenging heat levels.

I think the key point of these kind of charging speeds is that you need it for such at short time that the temperature delta is not a problem.

 

[Dabop]

I'd be skeptical of that. Nevertheless as you mentioned that comes with problems, such as what do you do with the heat. If they were fast charging a fully discharged 100KWhr battery pack at 2 megawatt (I rounded to make the math easier,.) that would mean you would charge in 3 minutes. That heat has to go somewhere. AI can only help so much.

Well seeing as they are currently being installed in Australia- I'd be slightly less sceptical lol
(InsideEVs actually saw one being demonstrated a while back)


The BYD Megacharger has passed Australian Standards testing and is being installed in Sydney and Melbourne at BYD Denza dealers to begin with, and the Geely made one is undergoing testing now as well...
(so that's TWO companies that have them coming to Australia lol)

The BYD is known as the 'Flash' charger here, it does compatible cars (they need the 800v battery voltages rather than the older 400v ones) and it comes in two versions- the 'Big T' for lower density use (it contains its internal battery pack in the charger itself) or the smaller 'high use' version for freeway travel stops etc- it uses a BYD 'container' battery bank (as used for 'big battery' mains grid levelling)

The smaller capacity 'Big T' Flash charger for lower volume areas


The 'high traffic area' version has a much smaller 'head unit'

Somewhere out the back, a tilt-tray drops off one of these and its wired up...

These can utilise solar if it is available (many Aussie servos already have large solar 'awnings' for weather protection during the day, and allow the charger to not need a major upgrade to the power lines- it 'dumps' the power into the car in under 10 min, the does a 'slower trickle charge' to refill over a longer period of time (less kw from the grid, same kWh used over that longer time...)



Although Denza (BYDs 'luxury arm' of the company) will be the first to have them installed. the popular BYD Atto 3 (been on sale here in Australia since 2022) has its new Gen 3 2026 model has in the Premium top trim levels already has the 800v architecture needed to handle the Flash chargers- and in a $45k Au SUV no less (its the same size as the base trim level $62k Au Tesla Y SUV and even the Premium package is a LOT less than a Tesla lol) the $30k Au base model Atto 3 still runs the 400v so can't take full advantage of the Flash chargers capabilities at this stage...


These aren't 'pie in the sky' dreamware- they are being installed NOW in Australia (and we are well behind China, where BYD already has reached 10000 of their Flash chargers installed and running as of August 28th... and are installing 1000 a month!!!)

BYD Already Deployed 10,000+ Flash Chargers

BYD significantly accelerated deployment of its 1.5-MW, 5-minute Flash Charging system in China, reaching 10,000 stations (stalls, we believe) on August 28, 2026.

evchargingstations.com

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

But will it be a problem? It's only 3 minutes. If you have 500kg of battery, and put 22kW of heat into that for 3 minutes, I don't think that will cause any challenging heat levels.

I think the key point of these kind of charging speeds is that you need it for such at short time that the temperature delta is not a problem.

Well, it's technically 5 just for going from 10% to 70%, over 8 minutes from 10% to full. That's 300 kWh in 8 minutes at 2.25MW, out of which 3kWh come out as heat even in the best conditions. That's 10,800,000 Joules. That's a lot of energy with nowhere to go fast. SOMETHING is gonna get hot, is all I'm saying.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Well, it's technically 5 just for going from 10% to 70%, over 8 minutes from 10% to full. That's 300 kWh in 8 minutes at 2.25MW, out of which 3kWh come out as heat even in the best conditions. That's 10,800,000 Joules. That's a lot of energy with nowhere to go fast. SOMETHING is gonna get hot, is all I'm saying.

If we add 300kWh going from 10%-70% that battery is a 500kWh pack, and would probably have a mass over 2500kg. That is what needs to absorb the 10MJ. So it has somewhere to go.

 

[acbytesla]

I've known about the 800 volt battery chargers for a while. No doubt they're increasing the speed of charging. I'm just looking at the numbers and even at 800 volts, they are a long ways from 2.2 million watts of EV charging. Voltage is only part of the equation, Have to add in the amperage and battery chemistry to the equation. Especially the battery chemistry.

According to data from Battery University, typical and maximum charge rates vary by chemistry:
• Lithium Cobalt Oxide (Li-cobalt / LCO) • Typical Charge Rate: 0.7C – 1C (approx. 3 hours) End-of-Charge Voltage: 4.20V
• Lithium Manganese Oxide (Li-manganese / LMO) • Typical Charge Rate: 0.7C – 1C (approx. 3 hours) - Maximum Charge Rate: Up to 3C - End-of-Charge Voltage: 4.20V
• Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC) Typical Charge Rate: 0.7C (approx. 3 hours) • Maximum Charge Rate: 1C End-of-Charge Voltage: 4.20V – 4.30V (depending on design)
• Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) Typical Charge Rate: 0.3C – 1C (recommended standard is 0.2C–0.5C to minimize wear) • Maximum Charge Rate: 1C End-of-Charge Voltage: 3.65V
• Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (NCA)- Typical Charge Rate: 1C - End-of-Charge Voltage: 4.20V
• Lithium Titanate Oxide (LTO) • Typical Charge Rate: 1C typical • Maximum Charge Rate: Up to 5C (very fast charging) - End-of-Charge Voltage: 2.85V

Now my math is not the best. But if my calculations are correct, that would be fully charging a 100KWh battery pack at 22C.