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Should the police be allowed to lie?

What we need to add to the Miranda reading is "you hear this mother ◊◊◊◊◊◊ reading these rights? He wants your ass in a cage and will say anything to accomplish that. You have been warned"
"Everything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."

At a certain point, the message is clear enough, and there's no benefit in trying to re-word it to be more clear for the 1% of people who will just refuse to understand no matter how clearly it's explained. In my opinion, that point is reached pretty much instantaneously after being Mirandized.

It's not the cop's job to try to talk a suspect out of self-incrimination. That's what the Miranda Warning is for.
 
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"Everything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."

At a certain point, the message is clear enough, and there's no benefit in trying to re-word it to be more clear for the 1% of people who will just refuse to understand no matter how clearly it's explained. In my opinion, that point is reached pretty much instantaneously after being Mirandized.

It's not the cop's job to try to talk a suspect out of self-incrimination. That's what the Miranda Warning is for.
There's a difference between self incrimination and being set up, though. Active malice against you should be warned about separately from being too candid with trying to clear the matter up.
 
Undercover work. Should police be allowed to misrepresent themselves as members of a criminal subculture, in order to obtain evidence and effect arrests? I think they should. Obviously there probably need to be some ethical guard rails, though.

Fake attractions. There's a famous story of the US Marshals mailing some kind of sweepstakes award thing to a long list of wanted individuals, and then arresting everyone who showed up to collect. Should that kind of dishonesty be permitted to law enforcement? I think so.
I agree on the above.

Lying during interrogation. Should the the police be allowed to encourage a confession, by telling the suspect that they already know the truth, or that their accomplice has already confessed, or things like that, even when they aren't true? I think they should.

False promises to obtain cooperation. Should police be allowed to reassure suspects that they aren't in trouble, or that they aren't about to be arrested, if it will encourage the suspect to remain calm and cooperative long enough to arrest them with a minimum of fuss? I'm not sure about this one.

I think "yes" to both but I'd also like it if every interrogation and discussion between suspect and cops were video recorded as evidence. That way if the lies used or the false promises offered cross any lines a higher authority and/or a jury can decide if it's acceptable.

Drug-sniffing dogs. To me, this seems like the biggest scam. We've known forever that a trained animal will take cues from its handler's body language, and generate false positives pretty much on demand. Every time I see a traffic stop where they bring out a K9 to sniff for drugs so they can justify searching the vehicle? All I can think is, "it's a scam!" Drugs or no drugs, the cop can probably get their dog to "alert" whenever and wherever they want, just by shifting their feet. That said, at least sometimes they do need to find contraband more or less where the dog "alerted". So I dunno. Say you're a cop, you know the driver of the car almost certainly has felony amount of meth somewhere near the driver's seat. So you bring in the K9 unit, have them alert anywhere on the front left quarter of the car, and now you have probable cause to search for the drugs you already knew (but couldn't prove!) were there. So I guess maybe the proof is in the pudding?

I'm not sure how reliable drug-sniffing dogs are or aren't. There's certainly evidence of dogs' amazing smell powers, but as you say there's also the fact that in the field the dogs may indeed be compromised. As the dogs can't be cross-examined in court or held accountable for their testimony I'd side with doing away with drug-sniffing dogs in small cases like possession, but let them be used in DEA operations going after importers and such. The distinction would be that the DEA suspects the drug lord has a thousand kilos in his mansion but just need to find the hidden compartment, versus a regular cop trying to come up with reasons to inflate a traffic stop. The former case isn't going to hinge on the dog: the use of the dog is just to save time, not produce new lines of investigation. If there are any arguments about where the line lies between those those can happen in court. Again, video recording the event for evidence would be greatly useful.
 
Yeah that ones OK I think. First off, the Marshals are only called in for escaped prisoners, or someone who breaks bail terms (I think). Secondly, they obviously have an address for the suspect. That method seems safer all around than knocking down the door for sure.
Did they have a valid address though? As I very vaguely recall that story, the Marshals didn't have his address, or knew he wasn't living there but someone else was who did know, anc they hoped would pass the news along.
 
I don't believe the police should be able to set people up for crimes that would not have occurred if it weren't for their meddling.

I don't accept the justification that the suspect was susceptible to committing the offense and would have done it anyway. Even if that were true I don't want police essentially creating crimes. It's like dangling a rich dessert in front of a friend with an eating problem who has recently committed to abstaining from sweets. It becomes sort of an IQ test or a test of impulsivity rather than law enforcement as we usually think of it.
 
I don't believe the police should be able to set people up for crimes that would not have occurred if it weren't for their meddling.

I don't accept the justification that the suspect was susceptible to committing the offense and would have done it anyway. Even if that were true I don't want police essentially creating crimes. It's like dangling a rich dessert in front of a friend with an eating problem who has recently committed to abstaining from sweets. It becomes sort of an IQ test or a test of impulsivity rather than law enforcement as we usually think of it.
Entrapment is already prohibited. This is when a person is given an opportunity to commit a crime, does not take the opportunity, and then the cop convinces/manipulates them to take it after all. I agree that entrapment should be prohibited.

Does your position extend to things like acting as a counterparty in a drug deal, for example? Pretending to be a buyer, in order to apprehend a seller?

What about things like child sex stings? Where the police pretend to be underage children online, and play along with anyone who tries to set up a date?
 
I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, this is unfiltered and unconsidered response to the OP:
Undercover work. Should police be allowed to misrepresent themselves as members of a criminal subculture, in order to obtain evidence and effect arrests? I think they should. Obviously there probably need to be some ethical guard rails, though.
Yes this should be allowed, but I agree that there must be limits on the amount/level of actually criminal stuff the officer can do (I am assuming that is what you meant by 'ethical guard rails')
Fake attractions. There's a famous story of the US Marshals mailing some kind of sweepstakes award thing to a long list of wanted individuals, and then arresting everyone who showed up to collect. Should that kind of dishonesty be permitted to law enforcement? I think so.
This one puzzles me. What are they bring arrested for? If these people are wanted, and the authorities have their address (which they must do if they are mailing fake notifications to them) then why don't they just get an arrest/search warrant?
Lying during interrogation. Should the the police be allowed to encourage a confession, by telling the suspect that they already know the truth, or that their accomplice has already confessed, or things like that, even when they aren't true? I think they should.
I am undecided on this one. I know that I don't like it.
False promises to obtain cooperation. Should police be allowed to reassure suspects that they aren't in trouble, or that they aren't about to be arrested, if it will encourage the suspect to remain calm and cooperative long enough to arrest them with a minimum of fuss? I'm not sure about this one.
This one, I am against.
Drug-sniffing dogs. To me, this seems like the biggest scam. We've known forever that a trained animal will take cues from its handler's body language, and generate false positives pretty much on demand. Every time I see a traffic stop where they bring out a K9 to sniff for drugs so they can justify searching the vehicle? All I can think is, "it's a scam!" Drugs or no drugs, the cop can probably get their dog to "alert" whenever and wherever they want, just by shifting their feet. That said, at least sometimes they do need to find contraband more or less where the dog "alerted". So I dunno. Say you're a cop, you know the driver of the car almost certainly has felony amount of meth somewhere near the driver's seat. So you bring in the K9 unit, have them alert anywhere on the front left quarter of the car, and now you have probable cause to search for the drugs you already knew (but couldn't prove!) were there. So I guess maybe the proof is in the pudding?
Doesn't seem to be any worse than those ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ 'field sobriety tests' that seem to still be a thing in the US. I guess it's fine for an initial arrest, but something less vibey and more factual should be necessary for bringing charges.
 
I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, this is unfiltered and unconsidered response to the OP:

Yes this should be allowed, but I agree that there must be limits on the amount/level of actually criminal stuff the officer can do (I am assuming that is what you meant by 'ethical guard rails')

This one puzzles me. What are they bring arrested for? If these people are wanted, and the authorities have their address (which they must do if they are mailing fake notifications to them) then why don't they just get an arrest/search warrant?

I am undecided on this one. I know that I don't like it.

This one, I am against.

Doesn't seem to be any worse than those ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ 'field sobriety tests' that seem to still be a thing in the US. I guess it's fine for an initial arrest, but something less vibey and more factual should be necessary for bringing charges.
In most US jurisdictions, a calibrated and certified breath test is administered at the police station, or a blood test is administered by a qualified professional, to be used as evidence for the charge. As far as I can tell, the preliminary business with the Standardized Field Sobriety Tasks is more to establish probable cause for the arrest and the imposition of the evidentiary test.

Establishing probable cause is kind of a big deal, since most US states condition getting a driver's license on your consent to submit to an evidentiary test when asked. Your license will be suspended if you refuse.
 
Entrapment is already prohibited. This is when a person is given an opportunity to commit a crime, does not take the opportunity, and then the cop convinces/manipulates them to take it after all. I agree that entrapment should be prohibited.
Entrapment is prohibited to the extent that the target isn't predisposed to the action---a rather subjective judgement that often determines guilty verdicts. And like I said if we're gonna get into predisposition (often by invoking criminal history) why not consider IQ and behavioral traits?

Does your position extend to things like acting as a counterparty in a drug deal, for example? Pretending to be a buyer, in order to apprehend a seller?

What about things like child sex stings? Where the police pretend to be underage children online, and play along with anyone who tries to set up a date?
Yes in both cases
 
In most US jurisdictions, a calibrated and certified breath test is administered at the police station, or a blood test is administered by a qualified professional, to be used as evidence for the charge. As far as I can tell, the preliminary business with the Standardized Field Sobriety Tasks is more to establish probable cause for the arrest and the imposition of the evidentiary test.

Establishing probable cause is kind of a big deal, since most US states condition getting a driver's license on your consent to submit to an evidentiary test when asked. Your license will be suspended if you refuse.
The USA is an oddly backward place sometimes. Roadside breathalyzers have been a thing in the UK for longer than I have been a thing, and I (despite appearances) am not a new thing.
 
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The USA is an oddly backward place sometimes. Roadside breathalyzers have been a thing in the UK for longer than I have been a thing, and I (despite appearances) am not a new thing.
We had them for many years too, but got into a sitch where we decided we don't like being treated like criminals who have to prove our innocence on demand. Conflicts with our ideals and all that.
 
The USA is an oddly backward place sometimes. Roadside breathalyzers have been a thing in the UK for longer than I have been a thing, and I (despite appearances) am not a new thing.
They're a thing in the US, too. But they're not considered evidentiary. They're part of the process for establishing probable cause for arrest.

There's a bigger machine at the station, that's regularly serviced and calibrated, where another breath sample is taken under much more controlled and closely documented conditions.

It's amazing to me that other countries would file a charge based on nothing more than the cop's portable breathalyzer and opinion about the performance of SFTs.
 
Being married to a criminal defense attorney makes me extremely biased on this subject. I have seen far too much evidence of police misconduct to grant them the privilege of lying ethically.

Do not participate in a custodial interrogation by police in the United States unless you are accompanied by a competent criminal defense attorney. The police are in no way your friend or interested in your well-being. They are doing whatever they can to incriminate you. You have the right to refuse interrogation outside the presence of counsel.

I believe police themselves are completely responsible for the general lack of trust in them. They purposely act dishonestly, recklessly, and maliciously. They do not hold themselves accountable for misconduct. They do not allow others to hold them accountable for misconduct.

Undercover work. Yes, if police are acting under cover they should be authorized to use deception insofar as it is necessary to obtain the confidence of the targets of the investigation. But I have a separate problem with undercover work. Police rely heavily on undercover work and stings because they suck at solving actual crimes. Reported crimes generally go solved. To create the illusion of competence, police therefore generate crime, skirting the boundaries of entrapment with great skill.

Fake attraction. I'm okay with this as long as the targets are people with outstanding judicial warrants.

Lying during interrogation and false promises to obtain cooperation. Strongly disagree. Most police interrogators today are trained in the Reid Method, which relies heavily on deception and manipulation to gaslight subjects and obtain confessions. Any actual evidence in the case is never tested because the defendant pleads guilty on the falsely purported strength of falsely purported evidence. The goal among police is to intimidate a defendant into pleading guilty so that evidence is never an issue.

I am adamant on this point.

The normalization of the Reid Method spills over into testifying and reporting. A vast number of sworn police reports contain manifest falsehoods. Police so routinely lie on the witness stand that there is even a term for it: "testilying." There is a substantial amount of social science in support of this.

Unless a defendant is financially able to buy a sufficient defense, these lies generally go undetected and unpunished. Because the Reid Method justifies lying in the pursuit of justice, this philosophy spills over into other facets of policing. If you are permitted to lie to get a defendant to confess, why not lie in the police report to get a defendant to believe he is in so much more trouble than the evidence suggests? Is that any different?

My spouse usually gets defendants only after police have lied their way to a nearly airtight case against them. Police lie and say they have a ton of evidence and that if they confess then things will go much better for them. Even innocent clients come to believe they are going to be convicted anyway, have little or no chance of a successful legal defense, and so confess under the impression that it's the least painful way out.

I support laws that forbid police to lie to someone in the course of a custodial interrogation. I believe such laws should include felony penalties for the officer who commits the offense.

Drug sniffing dogs. Controlled trials promise a high success rate, but field trials reveal an abysmal success rate. As noted by others, drug sniffing dogs are one of several methods employed during traffic stops to cobble up probable cause to search a vehicle in ostensible violation of the Fourth Amendment. However, it is nearly impossible for a defense attorney to challenge this. The attorney has an affirmative-defense burden of proof to show that the dog alerted for some reason other than having smelled drugs.

Dunno how this qualifies as police deception, though.
 
It should be compulsory that you have a solicitor present for any interview with the police. The fig leaf of "well they didn't ask for one" is usually a cover for police bad behaviour, the police should in fact want you to have a solicitor as it ensures that any information gathered during an interview will be able to be used if it goes to court. I know that police do get frustrated that many arrested people invoke their right to silence after advice from the solicitor, so it becomes a "no comment" interview, but that is as it should be.

The police should not be allowed to lie to an arrested person, but they should be able to withold information during an interview.
 
I was under the impression that roadside breathalyzers are about as reliable as polygraphs.
They are much more accurate these days, but they are still only used by the police as a reason to arrest you on being suspected of driving under the influence. To be prosecuted requires a further test at the police station on calibrated and certified equipment carried out by someone trained to conduct such tests (and/or a blood test). The same for the new roadside drug tests, not reliable enough to prosecute, reliable enough to be arrested as being suspected of driving whilst under the influence of drugs. (And of course you can't be forced to take such roadside tests and refusal to do so can't be used as evidence against you.)
 

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