Will Democrats ever concede on immigration?

[mumblethrax]

He's clearly talking about the influx of people.

The influx of people if we had open borders. He's not saying anything at all about immigration per se, beyond the fact that he doesn't think we could handle the economic shock of unrestricted immigration.

About 9% of U.S. births in 2023 were to unauthorized or temporary legal immigrant mothers

Generally, the trends in births to unauthorized immigrants follow the growth and decline of the unauthorized immigrant population.

www.pewresearch.org

This is just a total non sequitur. How does this establish that anything at all is unsustainable? It just seems like you have the standard nativist grievances.

Somebody has to do something.

Why? What rational policy aim would it serve?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Venom,
even if Americans were willing to shoulder the cost in taxes and lives (polls show universally that they don't, proving that you are very much out of touch with your fellow citizens),
what do we get in return for draconian migration controls? What are the benefits of keeping a big chunk of the (legally resident) population in a state of terror, causing friction and reducing productivity? What do we get for more surveillance, more incarcerations, more state-sanctioned murders?

many sectors of the US economy could not exit without undocumented labor, and Republicans are always the first to protect company owners from any consequences for hiring undocumented workers.
Is the collapse of the US economy really what you want?

 

[dirtywick]

At the very least it would mean keeping current levels of border enforcement. This should be the new normal for a while.

oh ok. hopefully pretty unlikely that the dems concede to that. massive cost to the economy, enforced on debt we can’t afford, unaccountable masked federal agents using a surveillance state apparatus to terrorize local communities they’re not a part of, and it’s pretty unclear on what the benefits are.

kind of a raw deal to me. but the dems are somewhat bought by the oligarchs pushing this anti immigrant narrative so who knows. maybe you get what you want

 

[steenkh]

I think this is close to correct. The Danish leftist party took this route - tighten immigration, increase deportation, but keep the social programs - and won.

The Social Democrats that you call "leftists" are a right-leaning centrist party. Even the extreme right in Denmark want to keep the social programs, just not for immigrants. There are also leftist parties in Denmark …

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Why? What rational policy aim would it serve?

We left "rational policy" behind us several administrations ago. Now it's all about performative outrage and goosestepping.

 

[I Am The Scum]

I don't doubt that.


The Left completely dropped the ball within the past several decades. That's my point.

Yes, it's a real shame that Ye Democrattes of Olde didn't predict the masked Gestapo thugs within our borders rounding people up to send off to foreign concentration camps and killing protestors who oppose them. No wonder Carter didn't get reelected.

 

[Donal]

Except it wasn't.

Except it was

Asylum officers would have considered whether migrants could safely relocate within their native country to avoid "fear of persecution", which is better, but hardly a high bar.

Its their sole function. I have no idea what you expect

It was never a high bar to begin with. And it looks like the Biden admin could have done all of these things without a new law saying so.

And your pedo daddy could have not stopped the bill

Trump basically stopped illegal immigration. As close as you can get, really.

If you're still taking anything the orange pedo or his pedo enablers say at face value, you're either a willing mark or in on the scam. And that link doesn't say what you claim it says. They said they made no arrests at the border. Granted, they do try to conflate no arrests with no border crossings, but we're too smart for that, right?

 

[Venom]

Venom,
even if Americans were willing to shoulder the cost in taxes and lives (polls show universally that they don't, proving that you are very much out of touch with your fellow citizens),
what do we get in return for draconian migration controls?
<snip>

I believe the country has ignored the slow demographic creep for too long. What do we get out of it? I don't think we would know until it's too late. Hell, even then history shows us that people can get used to almost anything. Most people don't take action, they just adapt. What's the cost of inaction?

many sectors of the US economy could not exit without undocumented labor, and Republicans are always the first to protect company owners from any consequences for hiring undocumented workers.
Is the collapse of the US economy really what you want?

Which ones?

 

[Manopolus]

I believe the country has ignored the slow demographic creep for too long. What do we get out of it? I don't think we would know until it's too late. Hell, even then history shows us that people can get used to almost anything. Most people don't take action, they just adapt. What's the cost of inaction?


Which ones?

Yeah... sure, man. I get what you're saying about demographic creep. My entire county is filled with people from The Kingdom of Hanover (Not Germany, since Germany didn't exist when they came over). As a matter of fact, these darn Saxons had the gall to name one of the towns nearby Hanover. Believe it or not, my great grandfather, who died in 1993 after living to into his 100's (WW1 vet), could still speak *gasp* Low German, among other things. Seriously, what is this country coming to? HIS grandparents probably didn't even know English!

And it's not like they didn't cause trouble. They were involved with the Bloody Kansas thing just before the Civil War, even. Some of them might have even conspired with John Brown! You know, that guy that tried the slave revolt thing later at Harper's Ferry. He was operating not too far from here at some point.

Yep, horrible demographic creep, indeed. Has been happening a long, long time. The whole region is a mix of Irish and German names, and even the cows are from the same region (Holsteins) as the people! Sheesh, my mother's maiden name is even Holle! You know, as in Frau Holle from Brother's Grimm. The one who created snow.

It's abhorrent that I was denied TRUE American blood. I'm so ashamed.

 

[Donal]

Oh, heavens, those brown folks might do to white people what white people do everywhere they go!

 

[Pixel42]

I believe the country has ignored the slow demographic creep for too long. What do we get out of it?

Are you by any chance Native American?

 

[Venom]

Its their sole function. I have no idea what you expect

It was a new detail in the 2024 bill

And your pedo daddy could have not stopped the bill

If you're still taking anything the orange pedo or his pedo enablers say at face value, you're either a willing mark or in on the scam. And that link doesn't say what you claim it says. They said they made no arrests at the border. Granted, they do try to conflate no arrests with no border crossings, but we're too smart for that, right?

You seem to think I'm a Trump supporter. Never was and I've never voted for him.

No interior releases in any case is good.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I believe the country has ignored the slow demographic creep for too long. What do we get out of it? I don't think we would know until it's too late. Hell, even then history shows us that people can get used to almost anything. Most people don't take action, they just adapt. What's the cost of inaction?

can you demonstrate that "demographic creep" is a harm?

Which ones?

Farming, hospitality, healthcare

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Venom, you are a smart guy I'm sure.

You have seen how this Administration ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up literally everything it touched, be it inflation, oil prices, tariffs, debt, White House Ballroom, Reflecting Pool, war with Iran etc. etc.

What makes you so certain that Immigration is the one thing they are doing right?
That they even could do it right, given the complete lack of competence displayed?

 

[Venom]

Yes, it's a real shame that Ye Democrattes of Olde didn't predict the masked Gestapo thugs within our borders rounding people up to send off to foreign concentration camps and killing protestors who oppose them. No wonder Carter didn't get reelected.

I opposed the killings in the metro surge and deportations to El Salvador as much as anyone.

 

[Suddenly]

Yeah... sure, man. I get what you're saying about demographic creep. My entire county is filled with people from The Kingdom of Hanover (Not Germany, since Germany didn't exist when they came over). As a matter of fact, these darn Saxons had the gall to name one of the towns nearby Hanover. Believe it or not, my great grandfather, who died in 1993 after living to 108 (WW1 vet), could still speak *gasp* Low German, among other things. Seriously, what is this country coming to? HIS grandparents probably didn't even know English!

And it's not like they didn't cause trouble. They were involved with the Bloody Kansas thing just before the Civil War, even. Some of them might have even conspired with John Brown!

Yep, horrible demographic creep, indeed. Has been happening a long, long time. The whole region is a mix of Irish and German names, and even the cows are from the same region (Holsteins) as the people! Sheesh, my mother's maiden name is even Holle! You know, as in Frau Holle from Brother's Grimm. The one who created snow.

It's abhorrent that I was denied TRUE American blood. I'm so ashamed.

Next thing you know we will have a president whose first language isn't English. Hopefully not someone who speaks Dutch. That would be weird.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I opposed the killings in the metro surge and deportations to El Salvador as much as anyone.

not as much as people demanding a stop and criminal accountability.

 

[Venom]

can you demonstrate that "demographic creep" is a harm?

I don't know if I can demonstrate this to your satisfaction. It's ultimately a values thing.

Anthropology and genetics have shown group differences are real and remarkably persistent. If you look at the works of social scientists like Gordon Allport and Robert Putnam who study group conflict, it's far easier to engage in hasty generalizations than build bridges to other groups. And I think there's something to that---the sense of community and belonging, the willingness to share resources is mostly intuitive. And not all groups are as open as others and frankly there is no room in a liberal society for some people. If you can't agree with me on that part I don't think you've met a sufficiently diverse cohort of recent immigrants.

Farming, hospitality, healthcare

Yeah I'd rather not let illegals in hospitality and healthcare.

 

[Venom]

The influx of people if we had open borders. He's not saying anything at all about immigration per se, beyond the fact that he doesn't think we could handle the economic shock of unrestricted immigration.

He's talking about the economic shock and the nation. Either way the point is younger leftists have moved beyond this position. You don't really see arguments about immigration lowering native wages anymore, and certainly not from people who are immigrants themselves. No surprises there.

Why? What rational policy aim would it serve?

Preserving national cohesion, which does not follow hyper-rational policy aims but is an important goal that almost every other country takes for granted.

 

[Manopolus]

Oh, and I failed to mention in the former post:

NOW THE MEXICANS ARE MOVING IN AND TAKING ALL OUR ARTIFICIAL INSEMINATION JOBS!!!!

Job description: Stick your hand deep inside a cow's hoo-ha all the way up to your shoulder to implant prize bull semen. Also includes such things as attatching machinery to a cow's tits on a daily basis to extract milk, and various manure clean-up operations. I'm sure poor Americans in the cities would LOVE to have those jobs back. Doesn't pay well, but see, you should also calculate lower housing costs, which nobody bothers to do.

And if you can't manage to get a job there, there's always the industrial hog farms scattered around.

In either case, it'll be impossible to entirely cleanse the smell of animal manure from your body and clothing without resorting to extreme measures. But that shouldn't matter, since the entire region already stinks of it, and the people who live here don't even notice.


Of course, what else would you expect of someplace whose main export since 1950 or so has been its children? Sure, we produce food, too, but that isn't as valuable.