Will Democrats ever concede on immigration?

[Venom]

We could also ask can Democrats concede on immigration?

The conventional wisdom among the American left is making too many concessions makes Democrats look like Republicans without actually gaining Republican support, so Democrats gain little from moderating their stances. I think immigration is a strong exception.

As you may know the Left wasn’t always pro-immigration/amnesty/open borders. Liberals and socialists alike generally opposed immigration since the early 20th century, concerned that an influx of foreign workers would depress wages and they criticized the big business lobby fighting to bring them in. Until fairly recently you could see Democrats like Chuck Schumer and Bernie Sanders using similar language, though by the late 2000s they were both receptive to amnesty for illegals. Chuck Schumer went from refusing to even use the term “undocumented worker” to fighting for amnesty for 11 million of them.

Looking at demographics, the Pew Research Center says about 44 percent of Democratic party voters are nonwhite. The vast majority are not recent immigrants, but a sizeable chunk of Hispanics and Asians are second-generation immigrants. And younger voters lean Democrat.

I think there is an opportunity to steal a good chunk of the populist Right by doing the usual lefty progressive stuff + closed borders and deportations. Democrats could be favored in every election cycle for the next several decades. I’ve always believed that economic anxiety was subordinate to white anxiety in the 2016 presidential election. The Old Left would have exploited the situation immediately.

But is the motivation there today? Will immigrants and their descendants go along with it? I’m not sure they can. I think the leftwing of the Democratic party (Left progressives, DSA, etc) is stuck with a multiracial coalition who may not be all that ideological and not enthusiastic about class conflict. But it’s tough for the ideologues to openly reject them.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

you never heard of the term "Deporter in Chief", have you?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The only difference between Dems and Repubs on Deportations is that Dems want to do it legally, following the laws and procedures - at least on paper.
Republicans not only want to criminally abduct undocumented people (or citizens of the wrong color) and drop them in another country without procedure - they want to do it with maximum cruelty and bodycount, even if that costs 100x as much as doing it by the book.

 

[PitPat]

you never heard of the term "Deporter in Chief", have you?

Yeah no ◊◊◊◊, that's what they called Obama at the time.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

seriously, have you checked how much money Trump is spending on this?
Do you really think that this money could not be spend much more usefully for Americans in other ways?
By now ICE is bigger than most militarizes in the world.

 

[PitPat]

seriously, have you checked how much money Trump is spending on this?
Do you really think that this money could not be spend much more usefully for Americans in other ways?
By now ICE is bigger than most militarizes in the world.

And have way fewer checks and balances than the military.

 

[Venom]

The only difference between Dems and Repubs on Deportations is that Dems want to do it legally, following the laws and procedures - at least on paper.
Republicans not only want to criminally abduct undocumented people (or citizens of the wrong color) and drop them in another country without procedure - they want to do it with maximum cruelty and bodycount, even if that costs 100x as much as doing it by the book.

This admin has been performatively cruel about deportations. I don't defend that. But it doesn't help that prominent Democrats have been proposing amnesty for millions of illegals who could have been deported.

Mind you under Trump's second term, illegal immigration has been practically ended. Border crossings are very uncommon. Visa and travel restrictions are unprecedented.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Millions of LEGAL residents being deported, and some citizens being shot.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Mind you under Trump's second term, illegal immigration has been practically ended. Border crossings are very uncommon. Visa and travel restrictions are unprecedented.

Or visa violations are continuing apace but simply not being recorded or reported. Don't want Donny having a huff about fake news numbers!

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Bush senior and junior proposed Amnesty - it's a Republican policy. That is until Republicans decided to go insane.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

It is just a straight up lie that Republicans would support a more moderate Dems policy.
Fact is that policies that have widespread Republican support when proposed by Republicans become toxic the moment Democrats want to introduce them.

Immigration, environmental regulations, national parks, RomneyCare, renewable energy - they all came initially from the Republican side of the Spectrum.

But since Gingrich, the GOP mission has been to sink every Democrat policy, no matter how much it aligns with their own or how much it makes sense and would benefit the country.

Venom, you have been lied to.

What are you going to do about it?

 

[Venom]

Bush senior and junior proposed Amnesty - it's a Republican policy. That is until Republicans decided to go insane.

It is just a straight up lie that Republicans would support a more moderate Dems policy.
Fact is that policies that have widespread Republican support when proposed by Republicans become toxic the moment Democrats want to introduce them.

Immigration, environmental regulations, national parks, RomneyCare, renewable energy - they all came initially from the Republican side of the Spectrum.

But since Gingrich, the GOP mission has been to sink every Democrat policy, no matter how much it aligns with their own or how much it makes sense and would benefit the country.

Venom, you have been lied to.

What are you going to do about it?

Yes these things originated among Republican leaders, but I should elaborate further. I think this was more possible during a time when the two major parties shared a liberal core and the country had a comfortable white majority. There were plenty of figures to the right of Reagan and Bush who were harshly critical of amnesty. And we're seeing a resurgence of that rightwing opposition today.

I didn't call for a moderate Dem policy---it should be tough enough for most of the anti-immigrant crowd. Give them the immigration issue and take away one of the Right's biggest political rallying cries. And given demographics, it's very likely leftist Dems will win on almost every other issue. But the paradox is also because of demographics, you've got a coalition of ethnic groups (twice to three times as large for Democrats) who mostly don't give a ◊◊◊◊ about white leftists' esoteric class theories and have every incentive to keep borders open.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I would support the argument that Dems should focus on what their own voters want and make sure there's no space for Candidates to their Left instead of kidding themselves that they can reach MAGA voters.
But on the subject of Immigration, most Americans are opposed to the GOP sanctioned Gestapo methods that have seen dozens of people murdered, including Americans, with zero accountability.

It's time for Republicans to return to the Center.

 

[Tero]

There are practical issues. I don't want a secret police patrolling my streets because they are interfering with our life. With such a small number of rapist murderers (and NONE of them have fenatnyl in their pockets) there is little benefit to rounding up 90% of the illegals. We are paying to transport them "back" and they return if they have some connections somewhere. Such as their own kids.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

You know political winds have shifted when we start getting the "but why can't those mean ol' Democrats compromise on anything???" threads.

 

[Nova Land]

As you may know the Left wasn’t always pro-immigration/amnesty/open borders. Liberals and socialists alike generally opposed immigration since the early 20th century, concerned that an influx of foreign workers would depress wages and they criticized the big business lobby fighting to bring them in.

Really? That's not my recollection of liberals, socialists, and people on the left during the mid-20th century.

Growing up in the1950s, my recollection is the opposite of what you appear to be claiming. For instance, I remember the music of Woody Guthrie, who (to quote the Wikipedia entryon him) "was an American singer, songwriter, and composer widely considered one of the most significant figures in American folk music. His work focused on themes of American socialism and anti-fascism, and has inspired many generations politically and musically with songs such as "This Land Is Your Land" ... "

Now, it may not be clear today from the lyrics to "This Land Is Your Land" that it's a pro-immigrant song (although back in the 'mid-20th century it seemed clear to those of us on the left that this was a song about how people of all ethnicities who lived in the USA were part of our family and were welcome here), but Guthrie's pro-immigrant feelings come across even more clearly in his song "Plane Wreck At Los Gatos".

If you're not familiar with the song, it's about a group of immigrant farm-workers who were being deported to Mexico. The plane carrying them crashed, killing them, and the news stories about the crash simply identified them as deportees (because to the broader US population these weren't people worth caring about or identifying). To Guthrie (and to the people who enjoyed his music) these were people who deserved to be seen as people, who deserved to be treated decently, and whose deaths deserved to be mourned rather than brushed aside.

This was a much-appreciateded song to many of us on the left, and it was one which many left-leaning folk-singers chose to cover on their own albums and at their concerts and public appearances. Some of the singers who covered it include Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell, Judy Collins, Pete Seeger, and the musical group Peter, Paul and Mary. That's a lot of left-leaning folks (those who sang the song and those who listened to it) who felt immigrants deserved to be treated with compassion and respect.

I'm not aware of any left-leaning singers or songs which express the opposite sentiment. Many people on the left were opposed to the businesses which brought in migrants to make them work in horrible and unhealthy work conditions for way too little in pay, but the sentiment I recall was wanting migrants to be treated decently and paid decently -- not to end immigration or to kick out immigrants, but to welcome them and (as expressed in "This Land Is Your Land") treat them as valued members or our national family.

I think you are mis-representing what people on the left back in the 20th century were saying and feeling about immigration. Please identify some of the liberal, socialist, progressive, or other left-leaning individuals and groups who you think were anti-immigrant / anti-immigration, and quote some of the anti-immigrant / anti-immigration things they said, to help male it clearer what you're saying about them and whether it's an accurate representation.

 

[Donal]

You know the Democrats have repeatedly given Republicans what they wanted, only for Republicans to spit in their face, right?

The first time was in early 2018 when Republicans held the White House, the House of Representatives, and the Senate. Democrats agreed to allocate billions to the wall that Mexico was going to pay for in exchange for extending DACA, which is overwhelmingly popular across the board. Republicans wouldn't budge but still couldn't get all of their own party to back the budget bill, so we get the first shutdown of 2018.

The second shutdown of 2018 happened because Democrats again agreed to provide funding for the wall that Mexico was going to pay for, but Trump came back and demanded more money than what was already agreed on. Again, he couldn't get the Republican majority in the House and Senate to back the budget he favors, and we got another shutdown.

Then, in 2024, the Biden administration agreed to a bill that would provide more funding for CBP personnel and equipment, as well as increase the requirements for asylum claims. It was written by James Lankford, the Republican Senator from Oklahoma, and had majorities in both chambers. But, instead of bringin it to the House Floor for a vote, Speaker Mike Johnson deferred to Donald Trump. Trump didn't want to give Biden any sort of win.

And somehow, the myth the Democrats support open borders and other nonsense persists.

 

[Venom]

Really? That's not my recollection of liberals, socialists, and people on the left during the mid-20th century.

Growing up in the1950s, my recollection is the opposite of what you appear to be claiming. For instance, I remember the music of Woody Guthrie, who (to quote the Wikipedia entryon him) "was an American singer, songwriter, and composer widely considered one of the most significant figures in American folk music. His work focused on themes of American socialism and anti-fascism, and has inspired many generations politically and musically with songs such as "This Land Is Your Land" ... "

Now, it may not be clear today from the lyrics to "This Land Is Your Land" that it's a pro-immigrant song (although back in the 'mid-20th century it seemed clear to those of us on the left that this was a song about how people of all ethnicities who lived in the USA were part of our family and were welcome here), but Guthrie's pro-immigrant feelings come across even more clearly in his song "Plane Wreck At Los Gatos".

If you're not familiar with the song, it's about a group of immigrant farm-workers who were being deported to Mexico. The plane carrying them crashed, killing them, and the news stories about the crash simply identified them as deportees (because to the broader US population these weren't people worth caring about or identifying). To Guthrie (and to the people who enjoyed his music) these were people who deserved to be seen as people, who deserved to be treated decently, and whose deaths deserved to be mourned rather than brushed aside.

This was a much-appreciateded song to many of us on the left, and it was one which many left-leaning folk-singers chose to cover on their own albums and at their concerts and public appearances. Some of the singers who covered it include Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell, Judy Collins, Pete Seeger, and the musical group Peter, Paul and Mary. That's a lot of left-leaning folks (those who sang the song and those who listened to it) who felt immigrants deserved to be treated with compassion and respect.

I'm not aware of any left-leaning singers or songs which express the opposite sentiment. Many people on the left were opposed to the businesses which brought in migrants to make them work in horrible and unhealthy work conditions for way too little in pay, but the sentiment I recall was wanting migrants to be treated decently and paid decently -- not to end immigration or to kick out immigrants, but to welcome them and (as expressed in "This Land Is Your Land") treat them as valued members or our national family.

I think you are mis-representing what people on the left back in the 20th century were saying and feeling about immigration. Please identify some of the liberal, socialist, progressive, or other left-leaning individuals and groups who you think were anti-immigrant / anti-immigration, and quote some of the anti-immigrant / anti-immigration things they said, to help male it clearer what you're saying about them and whether it's an accurate representation.

How about the American Federation of Labor. It was not an explicit socialist organization, but used the same arguments to lobby against immigrant labor.

Philip Randolph and W.E.B. Dubois criticized mass immigration hurting economic prospects for blacks.

The United Farm Workers, led by Cesar Chavez, who beat up "wetbacks" for years because he believed American border officials didn't do enough to stop illegal crossings.

Two old school socialists, Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn, were critical of mass immigration hurting native labor until fairly recently.

I can list examples of Karl Marx making these same points. But the context is important by the mid-20th century. The U.S. was in competition with the Freedom^TM hating Soviet Union and I think a cultural turn occurred where immigration as a humanitarian virtue was emphasized over economic arguments. Indeed the United Farm Workers is practically pro-immigration now. On top of that you have the major demographic shift since the late 20th century. Open borders and mass amnesty is a mainstream position now.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

not in Washington.

 

[Tero]

The open part consisted of allowing assylum seekers to stay here until their case came up. Plus the Haitians. They had a work permit.