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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Here_to_learn said:
A book was released two weeks ago "Den sista lögnen" (The last lie).

You can read about the book here: https://swedenherald.com/article/russian-spy-behind-conspiracy-theories-about-the-ms-estonia


The book, with some 40+ pages of references for the statements in it, tracks several of the conspiracy theories around the sinking of Estonia back to a report "Felix report", aimed at discrediting the new leadership in Estonia.

The book also shows when Jutta Rabe was first exposed to the report, and that she based her reporting on it. Over all I'd say that the book is quite detailed and feels trustworthy. The authors for example point out when lack of sources leaves smaller gaps in the story.

The press release for the book is at https://press.volante.se/posts/pressreleases/new-book-points-to-russian-influence-operatio
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Presumably, this refers to the so-called Felix Report. AIUI Rabe's sources were Estonian and German.

I don't think anyone gave much credence to the Russians, with their misinformation machines.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
That's fascinating. I'm curious to know how Surikov's report was presented. I suppose I mean, who did Rabe think was its source? Presumably it didn't declare itself to be GRU black propaganda.
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Well, kindof...

This post shows how the report was presented: https://jamestown.org/the-mysterious-felix-group-raises-its-profile/

According to the book, Der Spiegel interviewed Anton Surikov on camera, and he was presented as an advisor to president Jeltsin and to the Russian Government, and based on this, he is presented as an expert to comment on the report. It is not mentioned that he actually wrote it...
 
Vixen said:
Presumably, this refers to the so-called Felix Report. AIUI Rabe's sources were Estonian and German.

I don't think anyone gave much credence to the Russians, with their misinformation machines.
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Der Spiegel did...

The Felix report built on existing reporting. They basically took whatever rumors had been printed earlier, and created a story based on them in the report. Part of the Felix report is from what I understand correct, but they spin a conspiracy around the known facts, combined with the rumors.

According to the book: Zavtra posted the Felix report in april 1995. Segodnja in May. The Estonian papers Eesti Sonumid and Päevaleht used the Segodnja article as a source for their reporting. In April 1996 Der Spiegel had their article and TV show, interviewing Anton Surikov. This interview is reused by Der Spiegel four times during 1996 to 2001.
 
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A quick search of the Spiegel archive gave me this article from 1997: https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/im-bermuda-dreieck-der-ostsee-a-50e1932f-0002-0001-0000-000008670372

Was klingt wie eine der üblichen abenteuerlichen Verschwörungstheorien, ist nicht nur für die Angehörigen wie ein hartnäckiger Pilz, der ihren sauberen Gedankenbau wieder und wieder befällt. Auch von deutschen Gutachtern wird der Geheimreport nicht belächelt.

Der Hamburger Kapitän Werner Hummel und der Seerechtler Peter Holtappels forschen seit mehr als zwei Jahren im Auftrag der deutschen Meyer-Werft, die die »Estonia« 1980 baute, nach den Unglücksursachen. Ihnen erklärte der Felix-Report bis dahin Unerklärliches, und als Hummel einen weiteren Zeugen auftrieb, der als Hintermänner des Schmuggels ehemalige hohe Offiziere der estnischen Armee angab, »paßte plötzlich vieles zusammen«.
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My German is not good enough to translate it, so use your favorite translation engine.
 
Here_to_learn said:
A quick search of the Spiegel archive gave me this article from 1997: https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/im-bermuda-dreieck-der-ostsee-a-50e1932f-0002-0001-0000-000008670372



My German is not good enough to translate it, so use your favorite translation engine.
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"A stubborn mold that afflicts one's clean thought process again and again" is a really apt image. The upshot of the quote is that the "panel of German experts" Vixen keeps mentioning found the report useful. Hardly surprising.
 
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Reformed Offlian said:
"A stubborn mold that afflicts one's clean thought process again and again" is a really apt image. The upshot of the quote is that the "panel of German experts" Vixen keeps mentioning found the report useful. Hardly surprising.
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One point made in the book is that the proposed story that was fed to the press over time did change, and did also contradict itself. But the aim was never to present one coherent story, but rather to create confusion and public distrust in the (Estonian) government.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
"A stubborn mold that afflicts one's clean thought process again and again" is a really apt image. The upshot of the quote is that the "panel of German experts" Vixen keeps mentioning found the report useful. Hardly surprising.
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Yes, I shall keep that phrase for future use
 
Reformed Offlian said:
"A stubborn mold that afflicts one's clean thought process again and again" is a really apt image. The upshot of the quote is that the "panel of German experts" Vixen keeps mentioning found the report useful. Hardly surprising.
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But it’s saying that it was the Estonian military, not the Swedish government, who were the purported "masterminds behind the smuggling operation". Admittedly, that would make Vixen's claim that the roads in Tallin were "blocked by military" to allow a truck to get to the Estonia make a bit more sense. Vixen was unable to say whose military was involved.
 
Mojo said:
But it’s saying that it was the Estonian military, not the Swedish government, who were the purported "masterminds behind the smuggling operation". Admittedly, that would make Vixen's claim that the roads in Tallin were "blocked by military" to allow a truck to get to the Estonia make a bit more sense. Vixen was unable to say whose military was involved.
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No no! It has to be the Swedes for the whole Arvo Piht subplot! For reasons!
 
Vixen, I see you're back reading this thread.

Perhaps now you can respond to the request I've made to you multiple times and which you have repeatedly ignored.

Please quote the part of section 3.3.2 that says that the Atlantic lock was only added to the bow visor in order to make people feel safer.

You have claimed that this is your source for this claim you've made and have repeatedly ignored requests to actually quote where it says this. It'll only take you a minute to read the relevant section and answer accordingly.

Here's a link to the relevant section:
 
Mojo said:
But it’s saying that it was the Estonian military, not the Swedish government, who were the purported "masterminds behind the smuggling operation". Admittedly, that would make Vixen's claim that the roads in Tallin were "blocked by military" to allow a truck to get to the Estonia make a bit more sense. Vixen was unable to say whose military was involved.
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Sorry to double-respond, but: Vixen was also unable to substantiate the claim that the roads were blocked to allow a truck to get to Estonia. The source she cited only said that they were held up getting to Estonia by some sort of military convoy. Nothing about where the convoy itself was actually headed.
 
Andy_Ross said:
Parallels.

Storm, car and passenger ferry, listing in a storm then sinking.

www.nbcnews.com

Search underway for about 130 people missing after Indonesian passenger ship overturns

Search teams, assisted by nearby tugboats and other passing vessels, had rescued 107 people and recovered six bodies by Sunday afternoon.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
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Not really similar. Compare and contrast, referencing RTÉ:

  • The Indonesian ferry that sunk 'lost contact' at 2:00am [local time]. "From the information we received, based on helicopter surveillance... the ship capsized but has not sunk. As of 3pm (local time) it had not sunk yet, but it was capsized," Indonesian Transport Minister Dudy Purwagandhi said.
  • MV Estonia passenger heard initial bangs and jolts at Swedish Midnight, as per witness statements (passengers and crew), at exactly the point it was in international waters and halfway through the journey, distance and time.
  • MV Estonia lost contact at 13:18 (12:18 Swedish time).
  • It sunk within thirty-five minutes.
  • The first rescuer on the scene, MV Europa/Silja, said there was nothing there (completely sunk, to Capn. Esa Mäkelä's surprise).
  • The bow - the pointy bit - was found to have fallen off.
  • The Joint Accident Investigation Commission said MV Estonia sank because of 'a strong wave' hitting the bow.
  • Capt. Mäkelä said it was normal late September weather.
So, the Indonesia ferry, did what one would expect by the laws of buoyancy: it didn't immediately sink, despite being capsized.
 
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Vixen said:
Not really similar. Compare and contrast, referencing RTÉ:

  • The Indonesian ferry that sunk 'lost contact' at 2:00am [local time]. "From the information we received, based on helicopter surveillance... the ship capsized but has not sunk. As of 3pm (local time) it had not sunk yet, but it was capsized," Indonesian Transport Minister Dudy Purwagandhi said.
  • MV Estonia passenger heard initial bangs and jolts at Swedish Midnight, as per witness statements (passengers and crew), at exactly the point it was in international waters and halfway through the journey, distance and time.
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None of those things is special unless you choose to imagine they are significant. There is no good reason to think they are anything but coincidence.
  • MV Estonia lost contact at 13:18 (12:18 Swedish time).
  • It sunk within thirty-five minutes.
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For well-understood reasons. It's not mysterious. There was a great big hole in the front.
  • The first rescuer on the scene, MV Europa/Silja, said there was nothing there (completely sunk, to Capn. Esa Mäkelä's surprise).
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Yes, we know. It had sunk. For well-understood reasons which are known to us, but were not yet known by that captain.
  • The bow - the pointy bit - was found to have fallen off.
  • The Joint Accident Investigation Commission said MV Estonia sank because of 'a strong wave' hitting the bow.
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They said rather more than that, but I know you'll go on infantilising what they reported as you so resent your fantasy version being comprehensively demolished by the evidence.
  • Capt. Mäkelä said it was normal late September weather.
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Sadly the Estonia was not fit to be sailed in the manner she was into that normal late September weather.
 
Mojo said:
Please quote, and provide a precise citation for, the JAIC saying this.
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Chapter 01:

At about 0025 hrs the ESTONIA reached a waypoint at position 59°20´ N, 22°00´ E and from there headed true course 287°. The speed was about 14 knots and the vessel encountered the seas on her port bow. Due to increasing rolling, the fin stabilisers were extended.
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During his scheduled round on the car deck the seaman of the watch heard shortly before 0100 hrs a metallic bang from the bow area as the vessel hit a heavy wave.
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Chapter 21 CONCLUSIONS

  • The ESTONIA's bow visor locking devices failed due to wave-induced impact loads creating opening moments about the deck hinges.
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MV ESTONIA - final report

Final report on the capsizing on 28 September 1994 in the baltic sea of the ro-ro passanger vessel MV ESTONIA.
onse.fi
 
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