Cont: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine part 9

[Andy_Ross]

Russia has a new secret weapon

A reliquary containing a fragment of the right hand of medieval Moscow Prince Dmitry Donskoy is being taken toward Russian troops fighting in Ukraine as part of a Russian Orthodox Church initiative aimed at providing spiritual support to soldiers.

According to Russia’s Defense Ministry, the reliquary was brought to a church at the Saur-Mohyla memorial complex in the temporarily occupied part of Ukraine’s Donetsk region before being sent toward the front line. A prayer service was held at the site.

Russia Sends 14th-Century Prince’s Relics to Front Line to Help Troops “Win” in Ukraine

A relic of Prince Dmitry Donskoy, a 14th-century Russian leader, has been sent to troops in Ukraine's Donetsk region for spiritual support.

united24media.com

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Russia has a new secret weapon

A reliquary containing a fragment of the right hand of medieval Moscow Prince Dmitry Donskoy is being taken toward Russian troops fighting in Ukraine as part of a Russian Orthodox Church initiative aimed at providing spiritual support to soldiers.

According to Russia’s Defense Ministry, the reliquary was brought to a church at the Saur-Mohyla memorial complex in the temporarily occupied part of Ukraine’s Donetsk region before being sent toward the front line. A prayer service was held at the site.

View attachment 75576

Russia Sends 14th-Century Prince’s Relics to Front Line to Help Troops “Win” in Ukraine

A relic of Prince Dmitry Donskoy, a 14th-century Russian leader, has been sent to troops in Ukraine's Donetsk region for spiritual support.

united24media.com

If Ukraine can construct a great Wonder before the russians gather all the Relics, they can still win.

 

[theprestige]

1 Kings 18:25-29 (NIV)

²⁵ Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” ²⁶ So they took the bull given them and prepared it.

Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

²⁷ At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” ²⁸ So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. ²⁹ Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Kings 18:25-29&version=NIV

I predict a humiliating setback for Moscow, in the Donetsk direction.

 

[azazal]

I think the video shows how ineffective a shotgun would be without specialized development.
It's something most of the worlds arms manufacturers are working on, developing effective small arms systems.
I think it will involve active and intelligent sighting systems more than particular ammunition.
An effective anti drone small arms system will need a projectile with as velocity, energy and penetrating power as a 5.56 to stand a chance of killing a drone. What will be the key will be the rifle mounted computerised sights and sensors that put the rounds on target.

Create a scaled down version of the phalanx PDF system with a mincrogun?

XM214 Microgun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It would have to be mounted on a small tracked carrier. It's listed at 85 pounds for the gun, tripod, battery and 1000 rounds. A mobile 360 mount, radar, etc is going to double that, if not more.

So by no means easy, plus I have no idea how well radar guided fire would work in broken terrain. Is it feasible as a squad level drone defense, in theory yes. Practical and actually effective?? Have to see it in action.

 

[jimbob]

Sounds like the plot of some dystopian Stephen King novel.

I was thinking that even press gangs in Georgian England didn't sound quite so corrupt

 

[theprestige]

Create a scaled down version of the phalanx PDF system with a mincrogun?

XM214 Microgun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It would have to be mounted on a small tracked carrier. It's listed at 85 pounds for the gun, tripod, battery and 1000 rounds. A mobile 360 mount, radar, etc is going to double that, if not more.

So by no means easy, plus I have no idea how well radar guided fire would work in broken terrain. Is it feasible as a squad level drone defense, in theory yes. Practical and actually effective?? Have to see it in action.

I think the near future will be automated remote weapon stations like the CROWS system, mounted on uncrewed ground vehicles. Probably not miniguns, since accuracy is both achievable and more effective than volume of fire. Lower rates of fire means more engagements and longer patrols.

So yeah, I think we're going to be seeing a resurgence of self-propelled anti-aircraft guns, built to a smaller design, tuned to deal with FPVs and loitering munitions at short(er) ranges, and mounted on self-driving vehicles. I think these are going to be escorting supply convoys and covering assault operations pretty much across the board, in the next few years.

---

My take on what we're seeing from Ukraine, in terms of operational doctrine on a drone-covered battlefield, is a near future something like this:

Assaults will be based on an an "assault stack" or "assault lance" paradigm. The tip of the spear is the assault team. They'll approach the objective as mounted infantry, dismounting to make contact and conduct the assault as such. They'll be protected from FPVs and loitering munitions ("drones") primarily by the active protection systems and automated machine gun turrets mounted on their transport vehicles. They might also be escorted and covered by additional light UGVs with anti-drone machine gun turrets. The assault team will focus on clearing the objective through close-in combat. Assault rifles, grenades, demolition charges, etc.

The shaft of the spear will be more drone support, in the form of jammers, relays, interceptors, and strike drones to add firepower to the assault. And the butt of the spear will be "smartillery" - drone-based fire support, both close fire support for the assault itself, and interdiction fires to shut down enemy reinforcements, enemy drone control stations, etc.

In fact I assume this is exactly what Ukraine is already doing, just without the anti-drone machine gun trucks.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Don't discount the new computerized rifle sights that can track a target and project aim off reticles similar to aircraft gun sights.
They are already being deployed by US and UK Special Forces in sniper and designated marksman roles. Sights capable of identifying and tracking drones are already being trialed.
Together with automated weapon stations they will give an infantry squad a layered defence.
Miniguns, shotguns and specialised rifle munitions aren't the way to go. Sensors and fire control systems with precision aimed shooting is the way to do it.

 

[theprestige]

Oh absolutely. Things like EXACTO are already out there. My impression is that the tech is all there, the capability is all there. We're just not quite to the point where someone is ready to greenlight automated anti-drone turrets on vehicles, automated or otherwise.

If you're escorting dismounted troops, you'll want to make sure your SPADs are keeping their field of fire over the heads of their charges, or firing away from them. Getting a reliable AI for battlefield use alongside human soldiers is probably still a bit of a challenge.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Oh absolutely. Things like EXACTO are already out there. My impression is that the tech is all there, the capability is all there. We're just not quite to the point where someone is ready to greenlight automated anti-drone turrets on vehicles, automated or otherwise.

If you're escorting dismounted troops, you'll want to make sure your SPADs are keeping their field of fire over the heads of their charges, or firing away from them. Getting a reliable AI for battlefield use alongside human soldiers is probably still a bit of a challenge.

With the rifle mounted systems I think they still working on their size, power needs and ruggedization.

Also some kind of IFF on drones and sensors so the auto systems and infantry aren't shooting their own drones.

 

[Mike!]

Russia has a new secret weapon

A reliquary containing a fragment of the right hand of medieval Moscow Prince Dmitry Donskoy is being taken toward Russian troops fighting in Ukraine as part of a Russian Orthodox Church initiative aimed at providing spiritual support to soldiers.

According to Russia’s Defense Ministry, the reliquary was brought to a church at the Saur-Mohyla memorial complex in the temporarily occupied part of Ukraine’s Donetsk region before being sent toward the front line. A prayer service was held at the site.

View attachment 75576

Russia Sends 14th-Century Prince’s Relics to Front Line to Help Troops “Win” in Ukraine

A relic of Prince Dmitry Donskoy, a 14th-century Russian leader, has been sent to troops in Ukraine's Donetsk region for spiritual support.

united24media.com

So they're resorting to The Holy Hand Grenade?

 

[theprestige]

With the rifle mounted systems I think they still working on their size, power needs and ruggedization.

Also some kind of IFF on drones and sensors so the auto systems and infantry aren't shooting their own drones.

Presumably your own FPV effects team won't be flying their FPVs into your assault troops.

Here I'm primarily concerned with the use of FPVs and loitering munitions to disrupt assaults in progress by attacking the assault troops. Those would be enemy drones getting in the faces of your soldiers, and them needing some kind of responsive, accurate, anti-drone fire at close range. Your own drones won't be in that picture. They'll be off disrupting the enemy somewhere.

 

[plague311]

So they're resorting to The Holy Hand Grenade?

Arguably the hand is in better shape than most of the other poor bastards that get thrust back into action after being wounded.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Presumably your own FPV effects team won't be flying their FPVs into your assault troops.

Here I'm primarily concerned with the use of FPVs and loitering munitions to disrupt assaults in progress by attacking the assault troops. Those would be enemy drones getting in the faces of your soldiers, and them needing some kind of responsive, accurate, anti-drone fire at close range. Your own drones won't be in that picture. They'll be off disrupting the enemy somewhere.

I would think your own drones will be flying a 'top cover' to intercept enemy drones outside the ground aa zone. There are situations though where I can see your own stuff coming in close to attack ground targets your squad designated. Also overflying assets on the way to an engagement will be whizzing around. A squad will probably have it's own drones for recon that need to be considered.
Some kind of IFF at squad level as part of battlefield control will be needed.

 

[theprestige]

If I were in charge of making up drone assault doctrine, I'd start with the Zulu formation, and define three lines of attack: The central line, by the dismounted troops. And two flanking pincer lines, for your own strike drones. They'll go in on either side of the main line of attack, and hook into the far side of the enemy position. Once the assault team starts to overrun the position, the drone strike teams back off.

But I assume the Ukrainians know better than anyone what actually works on a drone-infested battlefield these days.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Create a scaled down version of the phalanx PDF system with a mincrogun?

Ukraine is already fielding AA quad heavy machineguns on trucks and whatnot against drones. I think theirs is the soviet 12.7mm heavy machinegun, but I'm not sure. But I know that at least some Warsaw Pact nations had quad AA 14.5mm machineguns. Yes, the same as the WW2 anti-tank round, so it flies fast, far and flat. I guess Ukraine might want to ask around for any leftovers, if they didn't already. Or just take the 23mm revolver autocannon from Soviet airplanes, and put 4 of them on an AA mount if they want to. That thing really brings the rain of steel. And it probably ain't gonna break a truck. And they already have the technology and plans.

(Never thought my AA army training about enemy weapons would ever come in handy again.)

Plus they have German systems that fire a larger calibre programmable round that explodes in front of the drone into a cloud of tungsten pellets. Maybe some from other nations too.

But to also answer the other question, yes, fully automatic shotguns HAVE been developed before. A couple of them even in the USSR or later Russia. If Ukraine wanted a Saiga for its troops, there's nothing to stop them from making one. It's just a 12 gauge AK-47, not rocket science. There are no patents on the long stroke gas piston.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

If I were in charge of making up drone assault doctrine, I'd start with the Zulu formation, and define three lines of attack: The central line, by the dismounted troops. And two flanking pincer lines, for your own strike drones. They'll go in on either side of the main line of attack, and hook into the far side of the enemy position. Once the assault team starts to overrun the position, the drone strike teams back off.

But I assume the Ukrainians know better than anyone what actually works on a drone-infested battlefield these days.

Apparently the new Russian doctrine is to designate a soldier as a bait, and two as the drone killers. The bait's job is to stand tall and wait for a drone to come to him, apparently at which point the drone briefly halts if the soldier stands still, and the two hidden killers shoot their AKs at it.

Of course, the bait usually gets a grenade dropped on him, but eh, you can't please everyone

 

[Andy_Ross]

If I were in charge of making up drone assault doctrine, I'd start with the Zulu formation, and define three lines of attack: The central line, by the dismounted troops. And two flanking pincer lines, for your own strike drones. They'll go in on either side of the main line of attack, and hook into the far side of the enemy position. Once the assault team starts to overrun the position, the drone strike teams back off.

But I assume the Ukrainians know better than anyone what actually works on a drone-infested battlefield these days.

We have to be careful what lessons we learn and carry forward. Tactics and systems are evolving at a fast pace, although some consistent factors seem to be emerging.

 

[jimbob]

Edited by jimbob: 

Wrong thread

 

[Andy_Ross]

Yup, I posted it to the UK Politics thread earlier.

 

[theprestige]

Denys Davydov discusses the latest Ukrainian advances in the Lyman direction: