Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

[Lithrael]

For one thing, we have documented examples showing that the process is 'filmmaker submits film to BBFC, BBFC demands cuts, filmmaker makes cuts and resubmits, film is released with a rating' and not 'filmmaker submits film to BBFC, filmmaker goes to prison for 10 years'

 

[Poem]

For one thing, we have documented examples showing that the process is 'filmmaker submits film to BBFC, BBFC demands cuts, filmmaker makes cuts and resubmits, film is released with a rating' and not 'filmmaker submits film to BBFC, filmmaker goes to prison for 10 years'

My understanding is that the BBFC does not refer illegal content to Trading Standards - which probably means that they rarely receive submissions that break the law. With respect to porn imitating children, the offence is in supply and distribution - in other words, the potential influence on society if it were made available at scale (though one could argue that the producers and actors involved in the production of such content will themselves be potentially corrupted - as would the those at the BBFC involved in reviewing the material).

Again, this underlines why porn that attempts to portray children is so harmful: the BBFC won't contact the police if they receive such a submission - but Trading Standards would act if made aware of such DVD/Blue Ray content. It is all about the potential negative impact of what looks like child porn on society - which is just another way of saying that the issue is the potential for escalation.

I still want to know why @Darat finds such porn 'abhorrent'? No children are involved - all the actors are 18+ - so in that respect nothing illegal has taken place. If it is not about the potential for escalation, then what else is the issue?

 

[Poem]

Once the potential for escalation is established in a particular type of porn, then its legitimacy per se is called into question; if F (harmful) can lead to G (illegal), then A can lead to B, B to C, C to D, D to E and E to F (where A to E are legal).

 

[Darat]

Mulberry bush.

 

[Poem]

Mulberry bush.

Prevarication.

 

[Poem]

You keep asking me why I find CSAM abhorrent - I was assuming therefore that it was not a reaction you share in. Again you are asking me why I find CSAM abhorrent, why are you doing that if you also find it abhorrent? You should be able to answer your own question.

This is incorrect. We are discussing adult actors roleplaying as children; in the UK that is not technically CSAM, but it can lead to up to 10 years in prison. In Australia it can be classed as CSAM.

In the USA it is legal.

Why is the material in question abhorrent?

And it has not been shown there is a slippery slope.

If that has not be proven - why are you concerned about such content? You won't answer.

And it also goes back to CSAM prosecutions are not about a 18 year old playing a 15 year old, they are about sexual abuse of prepubescent children.

Why didn't you say this when you first described roleplaying porn as abhorrent? You made no qualification at all:

In the UK it is illegal to produce or consume any pornography that depicts the participants as being under 18 regardless of the participants actual age. To do so could lead to you being imprisoned for up to 10 years, heavy fines and being for the rest of your life on the "sex offenders" list.

 

[Poem]

The current situation is that the porn that was described in your quotation is illegal, it is prosecuted when cases can be made, people go to prison. I can't think how clearer as a society we can be that we find such porn not only wrong but abhorrent.

CSAM prosecutions absolutely are about the portrayal of any age under 18. You quoted the law yourself. Prepubescent is up to the age of about 10 - so the implications of your assertion are what?

Still no answer.

Are portrayals of children, including those of 12 year olds (ie post prepubescence) abhorrent or not? This is what you posted:

And it also goes back to CSAM prosecutions are not about a 18 year old playing a 15 year old, they are about sexual abuse of prepubescent children.

 

[Darat]

I have finished pruning my mulberry bush for the year, you are free to go round it as much as you want.

 

[Poem]

Not particularly corrupt.

However, two decisions here identify two individuals who may be extremely corrupt. One is the decision by the prosecutor to prosecute the defendant as a juvenile instead of as an adult. I assume that at age 17, the prosecutor has discretion here. If the decision to prosecute him as a child was the result of prosecutorial discretion, then I'd suspect the prosecutor of corruption.

The other is the decision by the judge to accept the plea deal, which amounted to a couple year's probation, with the charge dismissed upon successful completion. Judges always have discretion to reject the terms of a plea deal. Ruling 78 years of prison for rape and rape-related felonies down to two years' probation + dismissal seems like a pretty corrupt ruling from a judge.

I tend towards the view that there are rape cultures and subcultures throughout western societies, but that western society as a whole is remarkably anti-rape in principles and in practice, compared to other contemporary societies and to societies throughout human history.

For example, it's pretty clear that as a subculture, the wealth-having class struggles with things like reason and accountability. This kid rapes because he can, because his money insulates him from needing a job, or having to answer to anybody as a condition of living a life of ease and amusement.

So no, I don't think we have a rape culture in our society. I do think, however, that we do have pockets of rape subculture in our society, where members have found some way to insulate themselves from our society's defining principles and practices.

I also think we're developing a pervasive gooner culture in our society, but that's a separate issue as far as I'm concerned.

In context, the 'gooner culture' you mention is used pejoratively - is that right? If so, what do you thing are the issues?

 

[theprestige]

In context, the 'gooner culture' you mention is used pejoratively - is that right? If so, what do you thing are the issues?

Don't worry about it. That part wasn't meant for you. I apologize for the confusion.

 

[Poem]

Don't worry about it. That part wasn't meant for you. I apologize for the confusion.

You have of course every right not to want to get into the weeds on this and other issues. Gooner culture would have been easily predictable as a concomitant of the legalisation of porn.

 

[Poem]

....as would the inevitable charges of reckless human impetuosity regarding porn in general.

 

[Poem]

Let's move on: How do you justify calling for a global ban on all porn (however defined), given that:
- You know it won't be effective.
- It would be a drastic infringement on the right of free expression.

Obviously an argumentum ad populum; there is no automatic right - not if one is fully cognisant of the obvious harms - something you have acknowledged yourself ('probably is harmful to most people, and especially to minors').

 

[theprestige]

Obviously an argumentum ad populum; there is no automatic right - not if one is fully cognisant of the obvious harms - something you have acknowledged yourself ('probably is harmful to most people, and especially to minors').

You don't believe in the God-given free will to do whatever you want, good or evil?

 

[Poem]

You don't believe in the God-given free will to do whatever you want, good or evil?

God-given? Where are you going with this? You asserted that we have a right of free expression based on the fact that it's popular.

 

[theprestige]

You asserted that we have a right of free expression based on the fact that it's popular.

I asserted no such thing.

I assert that the right to free expression applies both to the popular and the unpopular. I further assert that the right to free expression applies even to expressions which are self-harmful and even anti-social.

I further assert that due to practical necessity, all rights, no matter how absolute, must admit some amount of regulation. Some expressions may be too harmful or too anti-social to be consistent with maintaining a civil society. Therefore, when we consider regulating or restricting the right, we should apply a principle of strict scrutiny: Is the problem severe enough for the state to get involved? Is the proposed solution actually effective in mitigating the problem? Is the proposed solution the least-intrusive way to mitigate the problem?

That's what happened in the US: The proposed law was found to be too intrusive - i.e., overbroad. It was found to ban far more than the serious problem it set out to ban.

And I apply the same principle of strict scrutiny to your idea of banning all porn.

 

[Poem]

I asserted no such thing.

I assert that the right to free expression applies both to the popular and the unpopular. I further assert that the right to free expression applies even to expressions which are self-harmful and even anti-social.

I further assert that due to practical necessity, all rights, no matter how absolute, must admit some amount of regulation. Some expressions may be too harmful or too anti-social to be consistent with maintaining a civil society. Therefore, when we consider regulating or restricting the right, we should apply a principle of strict scrutiny: Is the problem severe enough for the state to get involved? Is the proposed solution actually effective in mitigating the problem? Is the proposed solution the least-intrusive way to mitigate the problem?

That's what happened in the US: The proposed law was found to be too intrusive - i.e., overbroad. It was found to ban far more than the serious problem it set out to ban.

And I apply the same principle of strict scrutiny to your idea of banning all porn.

How are you defining expression?

 

[theprestige]

How are you defining expression?

Doesn't matter. Obviously my definition encompasses pornogrpahy.

If you think pornogrpahy doesn't count as expression according to some definition, tell us the definition you have in mind, and why pornogrpahy doesn't count, according to you.

Also feel free to tell us why you think this is the definition society should use.

 

[Poem]

Doesn't matter. Obviously my definition encompasses pornogrpahy.

If you think pornogrpahy doesn't count as expression according to some definition, tell us the definition you have in mind, and why pornogrpahy doesn't count, according to you.

Also feel free to tell us why you think this is the definition society should use.

How did you manage three identical typos in one post? No criticism - that must be a coincidental record?

 

[Lithrael]

It's from typing with one hand - happens to me all the time, obviously
/jk