arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
But what is it intended to deliver?
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The Socratic Method is a hoax
- Thread starter theprestige
- Start date
The truth.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
In what way?
Nope, not biting.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Plato is hoaxing us, is my thesis. Though at this point it's mostly people not being honest with themselves about the efficacy of a condescending and manipulative approach to debate between peers, or else not being honest with themselves about why they're doing it.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
The premise of the Socratic Method is that it leads the student to a previously established truth.
Therefore, anyone purporting to use the Method must have some predetermined conclusion in mind - the aforementioned established truth.
Therefore, anyone purporting to use the Method could save everyone a lot of time, and be far less rude, by simply stating the predetermined conclusion they have in mind. If it's an established truth, they won't even have to argue for it.
And if it's not an established truth, then it's an absolute dick move to try to force the conclusion with leading questions.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
Was Plato deliberately trying to mislead us for personal gain?
When was the last time someone told you what to think and you immediately went "yeah, okay, I'll think that"?
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
You tell us. If you have an argument to make along those lines, make it.
SpuriusMaximus
Penultimate Amazing
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I haven't seen any definition of "hoax" that includes it only being "for personal gain." You must be thinking about a "scam" or a "fraud." A hoax CAN be for personal gain, but it can be done as a prank or for any other reason. It only involves intentional deceit.
ETA: That said, I don't think Plato intended to deceive. It's just the best he came up with to get his point across, and wasn't afraid of doing some sockpuppetry.
ETA: That said, I don't think Plato intended to deceive. It's just the best he came up with to get his point across, and wasn't afraid of doing some sockpuppetry.
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I think it's a sham, not a scam or hoax.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
I think "hoax" is the wrong concept. It's a construct, and it's intended for certain specific uses. Within those parameters it has strengths and weaknesses; outside them, it seems pointless to expect it, other than coincidentally, to be useful at all.
Dave
Dave
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
The argument I am making is that "hoax" is not the right word.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
Yes. I agree. Good point.
Indeed. It was a rhetorical method he used to explain his reasoning process. Note also that Plato was using it on himself - as a dialogue between characters he invented.
SpuriusMaximus
Penultimate Amazing
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Which is exactly why I called it sockpuppetry.
SpuriusMaximus
Penultimate Amazing
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Yeah, I think that term is just about right.
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
Ineffectiveness <> fraudulence. Unless you're selling the item in question. "Learn the secret philosopher's method and win every argument by attending the Socratic Method seminar this Wednesday in Conference Room B at the airport Hilton! Featuring the master himself, Dr. Plato Ph.D., as seen on Oprah! $149.99 per person, $249.99 per couple!"
SpuriusMaximus
Penultimate Amazing
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A hoax doesn't have to be for monetary gain. Publishing some fake news on TikTok as a prank can qualify as a hoax just as well.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Fair enough. Maybe the author meant it as the Platonic ideal of inquisitorial didactics.
But we can probably find a softer version of the thesis, if that makes you feel better. How about, "people delude themselves when they think asking leading questions is a civil or effective way to conduct their side of a debate between peers"? Does that work better for you? Doesn't excessively slander the blessed memory of Plato McPlatoface?
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Yes, exactly. Unless you're selling the item. You tell someone the SM is effective, worth their time and effort, you're lying to them, hoaxing them, defrauding them (figuratively). You tell yourself it's effective, worth your time and effort, you're defrauding yourself.
That's my claim. It remains my claim regardless of what language you use, and regardless if you struggle to manage literal versus figurative usage. Taxonomical or definitional objections don't really touch the essence of my claim.
Maybe it's time to draft my monograph on the worthlessness of appeal to dictionary in a debate between peers.