Cont: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine part 9

[icerat]

1) It's an authoritarian regime with control over the media. He can just say WTH he wants on TV as a justification.

So was the Soviet Union, and Putin saw what happened.

2) Given the sheer economic capacity, Germany can easily ramp up production to cover both. AND it's a good reason for France, Poland, Sweden, etc, to ramp theirs up too.

Yup, which has major political implications, with Germany and Sweden having elections coming up. The trolls are already out in force about russiaphobia and wasting money on defence for "fake news" about Russian threats

3) Then why not just poke Estonia?

oh, they are, but in different ways. There's been recent rock work along the river that some are intepreting as preparation for amphibious assault vehicles.

But then I have no idea what's going through Putin's delusional brain. And in all fairness, he probably doesn't either

I've come to the conclusion that propagandists - whether Putin, Murdoch, or Musk - eventually start to believe their own propaganda.

 

[steenkh]

TBH, I still don't understand Putin's logic in trying to trigger Germany. The economic disparity is the polar opposite of WW2. He could have had an easier time bullying a relatively weak country like Romania, and had the plausible deniability that maybe the drone was jammed and flew way off course, since Romania has a border with Ukraine. Of all the ways to poke NATO, GERMANY? Seriously?? Putin must be completely nuts. As if Europe needed even more poking to ramp up weapon production even more.

I believe it is also done to bolster the Russian friendly far-right party AfD. They'll retract the support for Ukraine if they get enough power.

 

[sackett]

Two major world powers controlled by madmen.

 

[lobosrul5]

Two major world powers controlled by madmen.

No, theres just one. Russia is not a major power.

 

[theprestige]

Even Zelensky presents this war as part of an anti-Europe program, and that it's in Europe's best interest to stop Putin in Ukraine, rather than at the Polish border.

 

[Dr.Sid]

Russia now has a problem. Citizens are starting to think their government is the enemy, not Ukraine. So Putin is simply looking for new enemy outside. And why not start with the old enemy ? If there is hot shooting war with Germany .. which also includes other countries in the way .. Russia will suffer. But Putin will not. It's the old wag the dog situation.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

A russian hacker group just took down the websites of several Norwegian colleges and universities, apparently to punish us for something.

And yes, this kind of attacks, both from private actors and the russian state, will only escalate.

 

[plague311]

Whether or not that's true, Putin's narrative is already that he's at war with NATO and the decadent west. He doesn't actually need to trigger NATO. He's got nothing to gain from it, especially without going "yeah, we attacked Germany" and immediately triggering article 5. It's not even a propaganda point. Like, why even bother? That guy must be nuttier than a walnut tree.

My guess is he did it to appear to his constituents as a strongman that is in control of the war. I'm not saying it's a good way to do it, or that it's having the effect he desires but now his people think he's standing up as a leader defying the evil West!

 

[sackett]

No, theres just one. Russia is not a major power.

Thank you, I agree. I hesitated over my wording, but wanted to express the dismaying fact that two
dangerous countries are in the grip of nutcases.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Questions of taxonomy are boring. Taxonomies are ultimately subjective. The is no "right" answer. There is no "technically correct" answer. There's just how you prefer to organize things.

Good point.

That's why the war that finally put an end to slavery in the United States is still known as The War of Northern Aggression. (See also Rebekah Colburn, writing in 2017, and Gabriel Andrade, also writing in 2017. The comments on Rebekah Colburn's essay are worth noting; many interestingly named readers said "Really informative article, I had the opportunity to learn a lot, thank you." before plugging their web sites.)

Edited to add: Furthermore, this taxonomic phenomenon explains why the war discussed within this thread is known by different names in different countries, among them Ukraine and Russia.

 

[jimbob]

Good point.

That's why the war that finally put an end to slavery in the United States is still known as The War of Northern Aggression. (See also Rebekah Colburn, writing in 2017, and Gabriel Andrade, also writing in 2017. The comments on Rebekah Colburn's essay are worth noting; many interestingly named readers said "Really informative article, I had the opportunity to learn a lot, thank you." before plugging their web sites.)

Edited to add: Furthermore, this taxonomic phenomenon explains why the war discussed within this thread is known by different names in different countries, among them Ukraine and Russia.

Ooof

 

[jimbob]

A russian hacker group just took down the websites of several Norwegian colleges and universities, apparently to punish us for something.

And yes, this kind of attacks, both from private actors and the russian state, will only escalate.

View attachment 75262

I'm going to link to Grant ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Shapps (ironically about the only name he's not chosen for himself)

https://twitter.com/x/status/2095105334935220524

Also this map.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2094982120901144913

450 examples

 

[theprestige]

Good point.

That's why the war that finally put an end to slavery in the United States is still known as The War of Northern Aggression. (See also Rebekah Colburn, writing in 2017, and Gabriel Andrade, also writing in 2017. The comments on Rebekah Colburn's essay are worth noting; many interestingly named readers said "Really informative article, I had the opportunity to learn a lot, thank you." before plugging their web sites.)

Edited to add: Furthermore, this taxonomic phenomenon explains why the war discussed within this thread is known by different names in different countries, among them Ukraine and Russia.

Jesus Christ, dude. What is your problem?

 

[steenkh]

No, theres just one. Russia is not a major power.

Perhaps on a global scale, but for us puny Europeans, the Russian bear certainly looks big enough to take seriously.

 

[sackett]

Perhaps on a global scale, but for us puny Europeans, the Russian bear certainly looks big enough to take seriously.

For somebody like me, whose life from early childhood to the Great Soviet
Implosion was suffused with Cold War fears and, worse, assumptions, there was
never anything minor about Russian power.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

In other news, Norway just seized a russian ship at the request of Ukraine's Naftogaz Group‍ (a state-owned energy company. Seems the russians owe money for facilities it stole in Crimea and it was decided the ship will be a partial downpayment.

The company said it thanks the Norwegian authorities "for their assistance in holding the Russian Federation accountable" through the enforcement of the international arbitral award.

Happy to be of help !

Norway seizes Russia's Svalbard liner

The Governor of Svalbard has confirmed the seizure of the Professor Molchanov, a Russian passenger vessel that has been sailing between Murmansk and Barentsburg for a second consecutive season.

www.thebarentsobserver.com

 

[theprestige]

I do agree NATO is essentially at war with russia --by proxy. Of course they're also a sovereign country which has decided, and continuously decides, to continue fighting the war, for their continued existence as a country and people. The trolls who seem to think of Ukraine as some kind of European colony or US territory that's being made to fight, on behalf of the US or Europe, just tick me off.

The trolls that exist on this forum nowhere but in your imagination?

 

[Aridas]

No, actual North Korean and Iranian soldiers. Iranians earlier in the war launching drones in particular, the Russians didn't have the knowhow. Not so much now afaik.


North Korea has literally sent tens of thousands of combat troops and is sending more as we speak. Not mercenaries. Though of course NK itself I assume gets something in return. North Korea absolutely is at war with Ukraine.

This is not a valid refutation, despite the "no." Their role has been mercenaries in both cases that you listed at last check. That they're officially soldiers is of little relevance if and when their presence is solely because Russia's paying for them contractually. That puts them in the role of mercenaries working for Russia.

Russia doesn't consider itself at war with Ukraine either, remember. It's an anti-terrorist Special Military Operation

Again, not really much of a counter argument. Russia is sending soldiers to conquer and bend Ukraine to its will. North Korea is sending soldiers because Russia's paying them to send soldiers to aid in their conquest. Those are categorically different in nature.

I will easily concede that North Korea and Iran are serving as enemies of Ukraine, at present. However, their role has been entirely mercenary and contractual in nature and Russia directly bears responsibility for their use. That doesn't make things any better on the ground, of course, but rather deals with the actual relationships in play.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

The trolls that exist on this forum nowhere but in your imagination?

Did I say I was talking about trolls on this forum ?

 

[Steve]

Did I say I was talking about trolls on this forum ?

Overly defensive, perhaps?