Australia's Gun Problem

[Darat]

The question should be whether it is safer to have a gun for self defense or not. The data shows that a gun in your household makes it much more likely you will be harmed by a gun.

 

[Thermal]

It dors not. It shows that some people who are able to access guns really, really shouldn't. A gun in my house is not subject to gangbangers knocking off a liquor store, which is the group you assign me to.

If you want meaningful data, you'd need to weed out the criminal demographics that don't apply, and careless gun owners who leave handguns laying around kitchen tables, and suicides who did not own for self defense, but acquired the gun specifically for their grisly task. Lumping us all together is like talking about the likelihood of a shark attack on a bedridden elderly person in Kansas, and a young surfer in Hawaii as if they faced the same likelihood.

 

[theprestige]

The question should be whether it is safer to have a gun for self defense or not. The data shows that a gun in your household makes it much more likely you will be harmed by a gun.

You are letting the data mislead you.

What makes you much more likely to be harmed by a gun, in the US, is being involved in criminal gang activity. This correlates with having a gun. People who are not involved in criminal gang activity, and who possess their guns legally, are not much more likely to be harmed by a gun.

You probably know this, because your resort to saying "harmed by a gun", not "harmed by their own gun. Not being involved in criminal gang activity, the likelihood of me being harmed by a gun is infinitesimal. If I were to acquire a gun, and handle it responsibly, my likelihood of being harmed by my own gun necessarily goes up a bit. But even in the Commonwealth countries, this isn't by itself considered sufficient reason to deny someone ownership of a gun. Meanwhile, my likelihood of being harmed by some other gun doesn't change at all, just because I now own one.

This has been explained to you now more than once. Try this argument again, and I'll assume you've chose an dishonest and antisocial argument on purpose.

The data shows that defending gun ownership makes it much more likely that a gun-grabber will try to lie and gaslight you, rather than simply relying on rational arguments.

 

[The Atheist]

People who are not involved in criminal gang activity, and who possess their guns legally, are not much more likely to be harmed by a gun.

30,000 gang member commit suicide by gun each year?

I'm surprised they bother joining a gang.

 

[The Atheist]

In my state, there's no carry.

Shouldn't you be pushing for a law change? All those women getting raped need to be able to defend themselves.

You mean find a case of a woman who wants a gun to protect herself? I dont see the point in giving me that busy work.

I did spell it out clearly the first time.

If guns help stop women being assaulted, there should be evidence to back that up.

If there is, present it, if there isn't, stop suggesting it's a thing.

 

[novaphile]

For the performatively bewildered, this is how safe storage of firearms works in Australia.

At random intervals, a pair of police officers show up at the home of a firearms licence holder, the conversation and event goes like this:

"Good morning Sir, we're here to check on your firearms."

"Good morning Officers, come on in, here's my firearms cabinet, give me a second to get the keys..."

(Retrieves keys, and proceeds to open the cabinet and demonstrate that the ammunition and magazines are stored in a separate, locked receptacle.)

"That's excellent, thank you for your time, and we hope you have a great day."

(Officers confirm that all the firearms are listed against the licence holder or holders and then leave.)

How it works if the person is a moron:

(Firearms not stored correctly, because 'my free dumbs'.)

"We're sorry sir, but we're confiscating all your firearms, you're losing your firearms licence, and you'll need to convince a court that you deserve to get it and your firearms back."

Sure, a firearms licence holder could choose to be a dick head, but the consequences are typically that they cease to be allowed to have or use firearms.

I look forward to the chooser now coming up with many pointless irrelevant scenarios that we can all ignore...

 

[theprestige]

30,000 gang member commit suicide by gun each year?

I'm surprised they bother joining a gang.

Suicide has a selection bias. Suicide rates in the UK and the US are pretty close, even though guns are relatively rare in the UK.

Having a gun doesn't increase your chances of committing suicide.

 

[arthwollipot]

If you have an argument to make, make it.

The fact that you're not grasping it does not mean that I'm not making it.

Last time I checked commonwealth law tends to frown quite heavily on people who try to get an unfair advantage over a violent attacker or a home invader.

It does indeed frown quite heavily on people whose only argument is "I think I might need to kill someone some day".

Suicide has a selection bias. Suicide rates in the UK and the US are pretty close, even though guns are relatively rare in the UK.

Having a gun doesn't increase your chances of committing suicide.

But it does increase the chances of your suicide attempt being completed.

 

[Trausti]

But it does increase the chances of your suicide attempt being completed.

Does it? Suicide methods among adolescents and adults in Korea, 1997–2021: an issue of accessibility and awareness

 

[arthwollipot]

Does it? South Korea’s Suicide Rate Reaches 13-Year Peak

Yes, it does.

Handgun ownership associated with much higher suicide risk

Men who own handguns are eight times more likely to die of gun suicides than men who don't own handguns, and women who own handguns are 35 times more likely than women who don't.

med.stanford.edu

 

[Trausti]

Yes, it does.

Handgun ownership associated with much higher suicide risk

Men who own handguns are eight times more likely to die of gun suicides than men who don't own handguns, and women who own handguns are 35 times more likely than women who don't.

med.stanford.edu

Your comment was about completion. Merely owning a gun does not increase the rate of completed suicide.

 

[arthwollipot]

Your comment was about completion. Merely owning a gun does not increase the rate of completed suicide.

*rolleyes*

Suicide with a gun is more often completed than suicide using other methods.

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www.acpjournals.org

Overall, 8.5% of suicidal acts were fatal (14.7% for males vs. 3.3% for females; 3.4% for persons aged 15 to 24 years vs. 35.4% for those aged ≥65 years). Drug poisoning accounted for 59.4% of acts but only 13.5% of deaths; firearms and hanging accounted for only 8.8% of acts but 75.3% of deaths. Firearms were the most lethal method (89.6% of suicidal acts with a firearm resulted in death), followed by drowning (56.4%) and hanging (52.7%). Method-specific CFRs were higher for males and older persons. The distribution of methods varied across demographic groups.

 

[theprestige]

The fact that you're not grasping it does not mean that I'm not making it.

Here, I'll make it for you, since apparently you can't just say what you mean directly:

Humans having an intractable propensity for violence, it's good policy to greatly restrict access to the most efficient of weapons, the gun.

See? Not that hard. You could have said that ages and pages ago. No need to waste your time and happiness on this pseudo socratic nonsense.

ETA: I get it. I really do. Asking questions is great, because you can leave all your assumptions unstated, and avoid making any positive claims that can be examined and challenged.

I know what argument you're trying to make. I'm asking you to actually make it like an honest counterparty in this debate.

It does indeed frown quite heavily on people whose only argument is "I think I might need to kill someone some day".

It also frowns on people whose argument is "I might need to kill someone right now", if they take effective measures to ensure an unfair advantage for that purpose.

But it does increase the chances of your suicide attempt being completed.

UKian suicide rates are quite close to American suicide rates. Clearly people who want to take their own lives are able to do the job with or without guns.

Also, I'm not sure botched suicide attempts is a metric to celebrate.

 

[Trausti]

*rolleyes*

Suicide with a gun is more often completed than suicide using other methods.

Loading…

www.acpjournals.org

Um, so? Is it your contention that if people with suicidal ideation don't have access to guns they'll just not complete the act? Clearly, that's not correct.

Intentional self-harm (suicide) deaths

The suicide rate for people born in Australia was 14.6 per 100,000 people

Suicide

• The total age-adjusted suicide rate in the United States increased 35.2% from 10.4 per 100,000 in 2000 to 14.2 per 100,000 in 2018, before declining to 13.9 per 100,000 in 2019 and declining again to 13.5 per 100,000 in 2020. The total age-adjusted suicide rate in the United States increased to 14.0 per 100,000 in 2021, increased again to 14.2 per 100,000 in 2022, and then decreased to 14.1 per 100,000 in 2023.

Access to guns doesn't seem to affect suicide completion. See also, South Korea.

 

[theprestige]

*rolleyes*

Suicide with a gun is more often completed than suicide using other methods.

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www.acpjournals.org

People who are serious about ending it more often complete the job, including using methods that are effective over methods that aren't, and choosing the most effective methods available.

The UK suicide rate tells us this. UKian suicides still find effective methods, because it's not the gun, it's the suicide.

---

"I don't want you to have a gun, because if you become suicidal you might actually succeed. I'd rather you be forced t slit your wrists or drink a bottle of toilet duck, or jump off a bridge or something. Same outcome, if you're serious about it, but at least you didn't have access to one of those dirty nasty guns!"

- arth, probably

 

[arthwollipot]

Here, I'll make it for you, since apparently you can't just say what you mean directly:

Humans having an intractable propensity for violence, it's good policy to greatly restrict access to the most efficient of weapons, the gun.

See? Not that hard. You could have said that ages and pages ago. No need to waste your time and happiness on this pseudo socratic nonsense.

I did say it, not mere pages but years ago. Decades. That's how long we've been having this discussion. If you don't understand my point by now, I'm not what else I can do.

"I don't want you to have a gun, because if you become suicidal you might actually succeed. I'd rather you be forced t slit your wrists or drink a bottle of toilet duck, or jump off a bridge or something. Same outcome, if you're serious about it, but at least you didn't have access to one of those dirty nasty guns!"

- arth, probably

I guess not.

 

[theprestige]

I did say it, not mere pages but years ago. Decades. That's how long we've been having this discussion. If you don't understand my point by now, I'm not what else I can do.

If you've already made your argument, to your satisfaction, there's nothing else for you to do.

I guess not.

Maybe you should consider asking fewer rhetorical questions, and making more clear, concrete statements.

 

[arthwollipot]

Maybe you should consider asking fewer rhetorical questions, and making more clear, concrete statements.

I've made plenty of those in the past.

 

[jeremyp]

He might. He might also start singing showtunes. But what statistics there are seen to indicate more draw/no bang, than draw/bang.

Again, ya cant really dismiss what happens most often in favor of kinda sorta might maybe happen sometimes. Majority is majority, if we are talking majority versus possibility.

How did you make the connection between having a gun for self defense and suicide? I would see them as two different reasons for owning, and two very differeny classes of owners. Like, a suicidal person may not have even owned a gun prior to his sad decision.

People don’t buy guns to commit suicide. They buy them for other reasons and then use them to commit suicide because they are convenient and easy.

 

[arthwollipot]

Sure. Not sure what else I can do.

Just noticed that.