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Should we shut the hypothetical street corner porn booth


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Except that the UK, Australia and Western Europe have laws against the porn being discussed (18+ actors simulating underage) and don't appear to have any issues with 'medicine, education, history, art, technology, personal autonomy, privacy rights, and classical, popular, and most indigenous cultures.'

The laws in the UK, Australia, and Western Europe do not ban all porn of all types for everyone.

The only specific measure you have proposed is a complete ban of all porn of all types for everyone. That would be like the current laws in North Korea or Iran. Do you think those nations have robust medicine, education, history, art, technology, human rights, and culture? Tell me about their recent contributions to human progress in any of those areas.

If you've changed your mind about proposing to ban all porn of all types for everyone, please let us know and clarify your new proposition.

You seemed to have missed the bit where I have been discussing what to do about the terrible consequences by referencing countries that actually have laws against those terrible consequences without draining the ocean.

It is enough that you recognise those terrible consequences...yet you offer no solution.

The laws in the UK, Australia, and Western Europe do not ban all porn of all types for everyone.

The only specific measure you have proposed is a complete ban of all porn of all types for everyone. That would be like the current laws in North Korea or Iran. Do you think those nations have robust medicine, education, history, art, technology, human rights, and culture? Tell me about their recent contributions to human progress in any of those areas.

If you've changed your mind about proposing to ban all porn of all types for everyone, please let us know and clarify your new proposition.
 
The laws in the UK, Australia, and Western Europe do not ban all porn of all types for everyone.
Which is what I said.
The only specific measure you have proposed is a complete ban of all porn of all types for everyone.
No, not the only measure. I'm currently focused on porn that looks like kiddy porn...but you know that.
That would be like the current laws in North Korea or Iran. Do you think those nations have robust medicine, education, history, art, technology, human rights, and culture? Tell me about their recent contributions to human progress in any of those areas.
I don't need to do that unless you prove that making porn illegal adversely affects those areas of culture and progress.
If you've changed your mind about proposing to ban all porn of all types for everyone, please let us know and clarify your new proposition.
No change.

Right now, your country remains morally bankrupt, with my country not far behind. Tell me more about those terrinle consequences.
 
Like I have been saying - I have been calling out the USA for facilitating it. Apparently there is no problem....
Calling out for calling out's sake is pointless. What specific measure have you proposed re: kiddy porn?

Or, if you haven't proposed one yet - understandable - what specific measure would you like to propose re: kiddy porn?
 
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Which is what I said.

No, not the only measure. I'm currently focused on porn that looks like kiddy porn...but you know that.

I don't need to do that unless you prove that making porn illegal adversely affects those areas of culture and progress.

No change.

Right now, your country remains morally bankrupt, with my country not far behind. Tell me more about those terrinle consequences.
Please do not use the tem "kiddy porn" - it infantises the discussion and seeks to make CSAM sound not as serious as it is - it's akin to saying someone was a "kiddy fiddler" when they were raping babies.
 
To be clear, the documentary in question is not a piece of independent journalism, nor a dispassionate examination of the facts. It's propaganda in support of a specific social issue agenda: "abolishing sex trafficking and breaking the cycle of commercial sexual exploitation".


This is in my opinion a noble goal and one worth supporting. But that doesn't mean everything done in the service of a noble goal is itself noble, or even productive. Maybe Exodus Cry handles the topic with more integrity; I don't know. Part of their stated strategy is to "shift the culture with powerful messaging through films, videos... and the written word."

Their porn "documentary" is less a documentary and more a marketing tool. It's not meant to give you the facts so you can make informed decisions based on your values and preferences. It's meant to shift your decision-making "with powerful messaging".

I think part of Poem's problem here is that he's drank a little too much of Exodus Cry's marketing kool-aid. He was told their messaging is "powerful", and now he's trying to cope with the fact that it has little to no power here.

A myriad of members here have noted that Poem's actual goal is the reform of the entire pornography industry. This is consistent with Exodus Cry's stated goals, which are similarly comprehensive in scope. "Barely Legal" is just the first chapter of their anti-porn "documentary".



Exodus Cry says their solution is in three parts: Shifting Culture, Changing Laws, and Reaching Out.

I was going to include a section in this post examining the kinds of specific measures Poem might propose, from EC's "changing laws" page. But it turns out EC doesn't have any specific measures to propose:


Hilariously, the bulk of their "changing laws" concept is really just having lawmakers watch their propaganda films (which they present as 'documentaries', even though they're aimed at changing opinions, not documenting facts).

Their "changing laws" page does not name a single law that they would like to see changed, let alone what specific changes they would recommend making. Ironically, there is more detail about what exactly they want changed on their "Get Involved" page:


They have petitions you can sign, for the abolition of prostitution, and for stronger legal tools to prevent pornographers from exploiting vulnerable teens. They also think you can get involved by giving them money, watching their propaganda powerful messaging and hosting tupperware parties where you get other people to watch it too, and buying their merch.

It's not all bad, of course. I agree with a lot of what they have to say about the problems, and with a lot of what they have to say about the solutions. Loving outreach to victims, for example. I wonder if Poem's time and wellbeing might be better served by leaning into the outreach side of things, rather than the propaganda side. Start up a collection for a local shelter that serves this community, or even for a victim whose life you've personally touched, and I bet you'd get plenty of supporters here.

And of course I'm in favor of changing laws, as a general rule. In a democracy, it's one of the better ways to improve society. But that doesn't mean that every knee-jerk, emotionally driven piece of legislation that panders to a particular interest group is actually a net positive for society as a whole. I'd like it better if EC were more specific about real-world laws they think are part of the problem, and what changes they would make to have those laws become part of the solution. If EC won't say, how is Poem supposed to know?



In closing, I present this amusing coda. At the bottom of their "changing laws" page, they summarize their impact on the world's legislators as follows:
  • "Advised governments and legislatures in 13 countries"
  • "Received consultative status with United Nations"
  • "Advocate for stronger anti-trafficking laws by educating legislators"
Missing from the list is any actual impact.
 
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No change.

As I thought. A total ban on all porn, like North Korea's or Iran's, remains your goal and I remain opposed to it.

You've also just verified that whichever details you decide to focus on short of that ("let's do something about some specific aspect of the porn industry") is only to serve as the thin end of a wedge toward the thing you actually want. If every child in the world were 100% safe from all forms of sexual abuse (through some kind of magic well beyond the possibility of changing regulations about legal porn), your desire to ban all porn would be undiminished and you'd just come up with some other objection. You're just argument-shopping for emotional leverage. It's not clear (and it doesn't actually matter) whether you care about children's well-being at all.
 
To be clear, the documentary in question is not a piece of independent journalism, nor a dispassionate examination of the facts. It's propaganda in support of a specific social issue agenda: "abolishing sex trafficking and breaking the cycle of commercial sexual exploitation"...
Thank you for this very clear and informative deep dive.
 
As I thought. A total ban on all porn, like North Korea's or Iran's, remains your goal and I remain opposed to it.

You've also just verified that whichever details you decide to focus on short of that ("let's do something about some specific aspect of the porn industry") is only to serve as the thin end of a wedge toward the thing you actually want. If every child in the world were 100% safe from all forms of sexual abuse (through some kind of magic well beyond the possibility of changing regulations about legal porn), your desire to ban all porn would be undiminished and you'd just come up with some other objection. You're just argument-shopping for emotional leverage. It's not clear (and it doesn't actually matter) whether you care about children's well-being at all.
I care about children's well being and I think it is clear that you are uncomfortable with the type of porn that is under discussion. What are the terrible consequences?
 
Missing from the list is any actual impact.
 
Yep.

My hypothesis is that they're not publishing the resources they have created for changing laws, because they want to charge legislators a consulting fee to provide those resources only to paying customers.
 
Thank you for this very clear and informative deep dive.
You're welcome! I was thinking maybe I should watch the thing, since Poem seems to rely on it for a lot of their underlying arguments.

And if it had looked like an actual documentary, I probably would have watched it right then and there, just to be fair to Poem. But now that I know that it was created to further a specific agenda, and I already know what that agenda is, the urgency is gone for me.

I already think that there's a lot of exploitation in porn, and that the regulatory regime needs diligent and constant attention and reform.

However.

"Everyone here is an adult, and we're saying everyone here is an adult, but if you want to pretend they're slightly younger we won't do anything to break your immersion"

Seems like the least of porn's problems, the least of things that needs to be better regulated.

There's actual illegal child trafficking and child exploitation going on out there. There's underground pornography rings that really do trade in actual CSAM.

It's like the "step-relative" genre of porn. You know that a lot of viewers are pretending it's the "non-step" version of the same scene. And you do have people banning it, or trying to get it banned. But they're specific and concrete about it.

Poem is pretty specific and concrete about the problem. Or rather, chapter one of the 'documentary' he relies on seems to be pretty specific and concrete about the problem. But he stops short of being specific and concrete about his preferred solution. Beyond "calling out" jurisdictions for being too lenient, he has nothing to offer.
 
Please could you clarify what it is that the USA is not doing? It is clear (to me at least) that the exchange that led to your post is about me calling out the USA for making porn that mimics underage porn - material that is illegal in the UK and Australia (et al):
No, not the only measure. I'm currently focused on porn that looks like kiddy porn...but you know that.
What specific measure have you proposed re: kiddy porn?
Like I have been saying - I have been calling out the USA for facilitating it. Apparently there is no problem....
Are you affirming that the USA is not creating such material?
 
I really don't know how clearer I can be then in my previous posts, so we shall just have to chalk this up to us not being able to communicate effectively with one another.
 
I really don't know how clearer I can be then in my previous posts, so we shall just have to chalk this up to us not being able to communicate effectively with one another.
I still think it is possible for you to clarify, so I'll try again. You have said the following:
The current situation is that the porn that was described in your quotation is illegal, it is prosecuted when cases can be made, people go to prison. I can't think how clearer as a society we can be that we find such porn not only wrong but abhorrent.
Is this what you are referencing?
Not according to Barnardos - which I have repeatedly posted here:

Pornographic content which is suggests sexual activity with children is extremely harmful but is rife on mainstream pornography sites. This content normalises children as objects of sexual desire and drives the demand for ‘real’ child sexual abuse material. Such content is banned from DVD, Blu Ray, and Video on Demand, but is rife across mainstream pornography sites.
You have also said this:
In the UK it is illegal to produce or consume any pornography that depicts the participants as being under 18 regardless of the participants actual age. To do so could lead to you being imprisoned for up to 10 years, heavy fines and being for the rest of your life on the "sex offenders" list.
You state that this offence is: regardless of the participants actual age - which includes 20 year olds that look 12 or 13 does it not? In other words, we are not limiting the offence to the portrayal of prepubescent children? Is that correct?
 
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The USA is doing that - the law there (c/o Ashcroft v. FSC, 2002) allows content that mimics underage porn. You have quoted Lithrael who gives examples of content that the BBFC does allow (even though the front cover might suggest otherwise) - so if we acknowledge such cases and the BBFC's role in that then we must also acknowledge cases where they have not or would not permit a certificate:
Would require an explicit comparison.

Have already posted The Guardian (June 2025) - so we know that there is lots of material online that, if viewed, would constitute a criminal offence:

Officials at the British Board of Film Classification (BBFC) guided her through short clips of extreme material to help her understand the nature of easily available harmful content. She remains disturbed by the material she saw – content designed to appear to be child sexual abuse, set in children’s bedrooms – roles played by young girls, who may be over 18 but are acting as children. “The titles are very problematic, things like: ‘Daddy’s going to come home and give his daughter a good seeing to’ or ‘Oops I’ve gone too far and now she’s dead’ or ‘Kidnap and kill a hooker.’” This content would be prohibited by the BBFC in the offline world, but is unregulated online.

The Guardian, June 2025:
However, other forms of harmful pornography that are regulated offline are not subject to similar restrictions online. Research conducted by the BBFC found that one in three adult users had been exposed to violent or abusive content online in the past three months, seeing material depicting physical violence, nonconsensual activity and adults role-playing as children.
 
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To be clear, the documentary in question is not a piece of independent journalism, nor a dispassionate examination of the facts. It's propaganda in support of a specific social issue agenda: "abolishing sex trafficking and breaking the cycle of commercial sexual exploitation".


This is in my opinion a noble goal and one worth supporting. But that doesn't mean everything done in the service of a noble goal is itself noble, or even productive. Maybe Exodus Cry handles the topic with more integrity; I don't know. Part of their stated strategy is to "shift the culture with powerful messaging through films, videos... and the written word."

Their porn "documentary" is less a documentary and more a marketing tool. It's not meant to give you the facts so you can make informed decisions based on your values and preferences. It's meant to shift your decision-making "with powerful messaging".

I think part of Poem's problem here is that he's drank a little too much of Exodus Cry's marketing kool-aid. He was told their messaging is "powerful", and now he's trying to cope with the fact that it has little to no power here.

A myriad of members here have noted that Poem's actual goal is the reform of the entire pornography industry. This is consistent with Exodus Cry's stated goals, which are similarly comprehensive in scope. "Barely Legal" is just the first chapter of their anti-porn "documentary".



Exodus Cry says their solution is in three parts: Shifting Culture, Changing Laws, and Reaching Out.

I was going to include a section in this post examining the kinds of specific measures Poem might propose, from EC's "changing laws" page. But it turns out EC doesn't have any specific measures to propose:


Hilariously, the bulk of their "changing laws" concept is really just having lawmakers watch their propaganda films (which they present as 'documentaries', even though they're aimed at changing opinions, not documenting facts).

Their "changing laws" page does not name a single law that they would like to see changed, let alone what specific changes they would recommend making. Ironically, there is more detail about what exactly they want changed on their "Get Involved" page:


They have petitions you can sign, for the abolition of prostitution, and for stronger legal tools to prevent pornographers from exploiting vulnerable teens. They also think you can get involved by giving them money, watching their propaganda powerful messaging and hosting tupperware parties where you get other people to watch it too, and buying their merch.

It's not all bad, of course. I agree with a lot of what they have to say about the problems, and with a lot of what they have to say about the solutions. Loving outreach to victims, for example. I wonder if Poem's time and wellbeing might be better served by leaning into the outreach side of things, rather than the propaganda side. Start up a collection for a local shelter that serves this community, or even for a victim whose life you've personally touched, and I bet you'd get plenty of supporters here.

And of course I'm in favor of changing laws, as a general rule. In a democracy, it's one of the better ways to improve society. But that doesn't mean that every knee-jerk, emotionally driven piece of legislation that panders to a particular interest group is actually a net positive for society as a whole. I'd like it better if EC were more specific about real-world laws they think are part of the problem, and what changes they would make to have those laws become part of the solution. If EC won't say, how is Poem supposed to know?



In closing, I present this amusing coda. At the bottom of their "changing laws" page, they summarize their impact on the world's legislators as follows:
  • "Advised governments and legislatures in 13 countries"
  • "Received consultative status with United Nations"
  • "Advocate for stronger anti-trafficking laws by educating legislators"
Missing from the list is any actual impact.
Every 'documentary' will have some bias and every human will too. That Exodus Cry are not disinterested wasn't and is not disputed. Their 'documentary' does contain evidence. I am not aware of any push back from groups like the Free speech Coalition or industry insiders.

As an example of clear bias:
I remember when we were shooting one of those scenes...I was like...we are giving people the image of having sex with a child. (Hansel Orzame (former producer) from Beyond Fantasy)

Turns out that Hansel Orzame is now a pastor - but it is clear from the film that the actors do look underage.
 
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