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Australia's Gun Problem

Based in USAian stats in general, awful. IIRR a gun owner is 35 times as likely to kill themselves or a family member.
And yet again, that's the part that should give us pause. Is the European, NZ, or Australian gun owner 35 times more likely to kill?

I really think this is a broader cultural attitude thing, although without question, access is too easy in ye Olde United States.
 
And yet again, that's the part that should give us pause. Is the European, NZ, or Australian gun owner 35 times more likely to kill?

I really think this is a broader cultural attitude thing, although without question, access is too easy in ye Olde United States.
Yes the USA problem with guns is not just the availability of guns it is the cultural acceptance of violence of which guns represent the apex, reducing guns will reduce harm - especially to law abiding people, but it will take generations of constant effort to change the cultural acceptance of violence.
 
Yes the USA problem with guns is not just the availability of guns it is the cultural acceptance of violence of which guns represent the apex, reducing guns will reduce harm - especially to law abiding people, but it will take generations of constant effort to change the cultural acceptance of violence.
I don't think the cult of violence is going anywhere anytime soon. We worship power, and a gun is the ultimate power totem (second maybe only to a fat wallet). It's more than just acceptance; it's the declared endgame, from da hood to the boardroom. I think other countries are more community minded (see health care, retirement provisions, etc).

In my relatively gun-free state of NJ, we still have two cities ranked #11 and #16 as having the highest crime rates in the country- and that's saying something, considering the competition.
 
...snip...

This is what it boils down to, and I
think what the Australian laws mean when they say self defense is not a justifiable reason.
It's not that protecting your life isn't a good enough reason, it's that it opens the door to uncontrolled purchasing, training, and poor home handling, which increases the odds of a bad outcome exponentially. On that, I would entirely agree with the Oceaniac and European laws.

...snip...
I would say it means that "we know that people owning guns for self-defence increases their chance of death and serious injury way in excess of anyone protecting themselves from harm with such a weapon therefore a justification of self-defence would increase the potential harm to people ".
 
I would say it means that "we know that people owning guns for self-defence increases their chance of death and serious injury way in excess of anyone protecting themselves from harm with such a weapon therefore a justification of self-defence would increase the potential harm to people ".
Yeah, I think it is intended as the same, having slept on it. Sport shooters don't have a track record of poor handling and passion crimes; the random 'just want one around' owner does.

Still seems like vetting a self defense owner shouldn't be more arduous than vetting a target shooter or aspiring collector, though?

But all-in, I'm doing fine without a gat over here. My reasoning is that if I'm not home, the gun could be stolen. If I am home, an intruder is throwing dice against both me and the dog (both of which dislike strangers and are violent). I also have little of value to warrant the risk of prison. Lastly, if I did have a gum around, my wife assures me I would have been shot dead long ago. She doesn't go into further detail.
 
And yet again, that's the part that should give us pause. Is the European, NZ, or Australian gun owner 35 times more likely to kill?

I really think this is a broader cultural attitude thing, although without question, access is too easy in ye Olde United States.
You are neglecting to factor in easy access to firearms, in the UK (et cetera) weapons are secured and access is slower.
The UK sees less than one hundred firearm suicides per year, USAia sees almost thirty thousand.
 
You are neglecting to factor in easy access to firearms, in the UK (et cetera) weapons are secured and access is slower.
The UK sees less than one hundred firearm suicides per year, USAia sees almost thirty thousand.
And you see this as a reason for not considering self defense as reasonable? I seeing as a national problem of profound despair, and suicides are higher in the US without firearms than they are over there too.
 
You are neglecting to factor in easy access to firearms, in the UK (et cetera) weapons are secured and access is slower.
The UK sees less than one hundred firearm suicides per year, USAia sees almost thirty thousand.
And yet the suicide rate per 100k of population is only about 2 apart, 11 vs 13. I don't think this statistic has much to tell us, here.
 
And you see this as a reason for not considering self defense as reasonable? I seeing as a national problem of profound despair, and suicides are higher in the US without firearms than they are over there too.
Firearms make suicide quick and lethal. Though I agree USAia descending into ◊◊◊◊ hole territory.
If you don't have a gun problem, then guns are unnecessary for "self defense".
 
Firearms make suicide quick and lethal. Though I agree USAia descending into ◊◊◊◊ hole territory.
If you don't have a gun problem, then guns are unnecessary for "self defense".
A woman facing a rapist is not a problem? I kinda feel like it is.
 
Glad to hear it. Doesnt adress my point, though.

Doesn't need addressing, then. Gun laws are about what society wants, and ours doesn't want guns.

Lol, it was posted a half hour before you commented that it was being 'avoided', at 3AM my time. Avoided? Try 'posted for a few minutes while the potential respondents were sleeping'.

Mate, if I post in the thread that shall not be named and someone wants to argue the toss, three seconds is enough.

It's now been a day and a bit and there's still no answer.

You're the one saying women needs guns for defence against rapists and USA has legal self-defence weapons, so it should be easy to tell if it works or not.

I'll await your evidence.
 
If you have an argument to make, make it.
I've already made it. You do not choose to follow the law, because you are unwilling to accept the consequences of not doing so. Your choice, such as it is, is constrained by society and the structure around which civilisation has been built. You are not going to suddenly decide to rob a bank tomorrow. You are unable to make that choice. You cannot do it, and it is therefore not really a choice at all.

Pretty much the same as the UK.
Yes. There might be a reason for that.

...collecting (actually just telling police you want to start amassing guns)...

Again:

Reason: firearms collection
The applicant must—
(a) be a current member of a collectors’ society or club approved by the Commissioner in accordance with the regulations, and
(b) provide a written statement by that collectors’ society or club confirming that the applicant’s firearms collection has a genuine commemorative, historical, thematic or financial value.

It's not just telling police that you want to start amassing guns.

And yet the suicide rate per 100k of population is only about 2 apart, 11 vs 13. I don't think this statistic has much to tell us, here.
That's the wrong statistic to be looking at. You're going to want to look at the one that shows that the majority of suicide attempts that are completed, are completed with the use of a gun. It's the most effective tool for taking one's own life.
 
What this thread shows to me is just how impossible it will ever be to change Americans and guns.

On one side, the 2nd Amendment people, demanding the right to own and carry things that go bang.

On the other, seemingly non-Conservatives who believe guns are good for self-defence, in spite of decades of evidence to the contrary.
 
On the other, seemingly non-Conservatives who believe guns are good for self-defence, in spite of decades of evidence to the contrary.
I dunno. Some Israelis had guns on October 7 and others didn't. Who fared better?
 
Oh, you did not just bring Israel into this.
It's not really about Israel. It's simply the observation that laws are fiction. They exist only to the extent that we pretend they exist. When someone breaks into your home, or threatens you on the street, at that moment and place the law is whoever has the most force. Which is why it's so misguided to deny people the right to defend themselves.

 

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