The behaviour of UK police officers.

[junkshop]

I dislike his party and his politics (some people here will call me a bigot because I'm disliking a brown skinned man but I don't care)

No, you're fine on this one. Everyone hates him, regardless of his ethnicity. He's just an utter ◊◊◊◊.

However, he is right in the statistics he quotes. British police spent far too much time policing thoughts and hurty words, and not enough time policing actual crimes. Its part of their indoctrination.
I don't believe he or his party are the solution to this.... or to any of the problems Britain is currently facing.

Oh, OK. You're just serving up the same stale old ◊◊◊◊ again. Bored now.

 

[Mojo]

Have we had any complaints about two-tier policing in Middlesbrough yet?

 

[Nessie]

You are replying to the wrong person here. I'm perfectly well aware of this

I have pointed out the issues, specifically and explained why they are issues. I'll give you some more.

She is, initially. Apart from where she attempts to set him up for getting too close to her. Her mask continues to slip as he pushes back and her ego cracks. At one point she needlessly accuses him of being a bad neighbour who doesn't care about his neighbourhood. What is she on?

We don't know what happened at the start of the video, it wasn't filmed.

I know you have, in the past, been very keen to point out that we shouldn't rely on that which we haven't evidenced. Something happened between her and him that gave him cause to start filming. When he switches the camera on she is saying.

"[inaudible] give your details so I can let you go"

As he starts to explain his position she's radioing for another unit. Then she says, "I'm not saying you've done anything wrong, mate". She says this in a conciliatory tone.

We've been through the rest but, fundamentally, she makes an unconfirmed statement about people interfering with cars, which he refutes.

She later tells him the issue was that he came, "around the corner with his hood up and your phone in your hand and you turned away".

I don't find that she has a reasonable enough suspicion to go to the extent she has up to that point. She can't work of off a hunch or just because he looks suspicious.

We'll never agree because of your previous career and indoctrination that all members of the public are not be trusted and that you should suspect everyone. Another reason we won't agree is because of my inherent bias. I'm in this thread to flag up poor police behaviour and I can find it in spades... even when I park my bias.

If I, the potentially useless officer you tagged me as earlier, had been in her place, I would have engaged the lad and chatted about what had been going on. Had he seen anything? Did he live around here? Is everything OK, you're out and about a bit late? Fishing? Yes, but less combative.

In this particular instance it would have had exactly the same result, only, one less member of the public would be able to post online and show yet another officer earning the hate.

There's that word again or another version of it.

Here's what I find ironic about you using it in defence. I think in todays force you'd be hard pushed to find a "reasonable" officer, capable of having a "reasonable" interaction with a member of the public. Moreso, when and if, that member of the public pushes back, however gently. Reason goes out the window and the tyrant with a fragile ego emerges.

The tyrant starts to emerge when she orders this guy not to walk away [complies], then tells him to "stay where you are" [complies], then, taking around 6 or 7 steps, walks up to him and tells him "don't come any closer to me". The tyrant attempts to tie him in when she asserts, "I have no reason to suspect that you are not involved".

She has no reason she says. Her brain cannot comprehend or come up with any reason, at all, that he might not be involved. Despite this unequivocal, in her mind, proof she doesn't arrest him

I don't know for sure if she informs him that she's activated her BWC. My bias and analysis of this video and other similar situations leads me to conclude she hasn't, she should. Same with giving him the courtesy of her name, station, and warrant/collar number, which she should have done as she was initiating a stop and search. None of the officers present offer this, why? This was hardly a high stress quickly moving environment.

You said, in your previous post "By magic no further checks were required.". But that is an unevidenced assumption, as he cuts out part of the video.

Of course you would have engaged him is a different way and you think your way is the best. You assume the male would have cooperated with you and you fail to explain what you would have done if he did not, though, it is clear that you would have just let him refuse to cooperate and walk away. If you were a police officer you would soon get the reputation of being an easy touch, scared of confrontation, unable to assert yourself and no one would want to work with you. If you were known to the local community, criminals would not be in the slightest bit worried about you.

 

[smartcooky]

No, you're fine on this one. Everyone hates him, regardless of his ethnicity. He's just an utter ◊◊◊◊.

Right, so its only bigotry if I attack a brown skinned person you also disagree with? Good to know!

Oh, OK. You're just serving up the same stale old ◊◊◊◊ again. Bored now.

Which part do you think is stale, the "wrong priorities of the British police" part, or the "Reform is not the answer" part?

 

[Nessie]

The only political party who is serious about improving policing in the UK, is one that will hugely increase the policing budget. At the moment that is none of them, AFAIK. Proposals, such as unified forces will have limited if not impact, as seen when all the Scottish forces were merged. In the end, it does not matter how you cut up the cake, when the cake is always the same size.

There is one alternative. Despite police failings, they constantly overwhelm the rest of the CJ system. There are huge trial backlogs and nowhere near enough rehabilitation, probation and prison places. If that part worked, there would be fewer repeat offenders and more of a deterrence. But, that solution also needs large amounts of money.

 

[Darat]

But many of the problems in the police forces and the wider CJ system have been in place for decades, and these are not a matter of lack of money. Racism and sexism are rife in the police forces, you do not need additional funds to deal with that, you simply need honest and professional staff to do their job properly.

The "austerity" cuts made by the Tories and Liberals have undoubtedly caused the log jam in the wider CJ system, but that is a separate issue and shouldn't be used as an excuse for the police being racist and sexist.

(The police forces are pretty much prejudiced against all minorities, I'm using "racist and sexist" as a general description of their biases. There is plenty of evidence that the police have been biased for over a hundred years but I'm concentrating on the well documented reports and inquires since the 1970s.)

ETA: I do think there have been improvements in policing over the decades, for example out right criminality by the police seems to have been reduced, less "he fell down the stairs" violence, much better interviews, better evidence handling, it's a long list.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Have we had any complaints about two-tier policing in Middlesbrough yet?

The police spend more time and resources in areas like South Bank than they do in the likes of Nunthorpe?

 

[Nessie]

But many of the problems in the police forces and the wider CJ system have been in place for decades, and these are not a matter of lack of money. Racism and sexism are rife in the police forces, you do not need additional funds to deal with that, you simply need honest and professional staff to do their job properly.

The "austerity" cuts made by the Tories and Liberals have undoubtedly caused the log jam in the wider CJ system, but that is a separate issue and shouldn't be used as an excuse for the police being racist and sexist.

(The police forces are pretty much prejudiced against all minorities, I'm using "racist and sexist" as a general description of their biases. There is plenty of evidence that the police have been biased for over a hundred years but I'm concentrating on the well documented reports and inquires since the 1970s.)

ETA: I do think there have been improvements in policing over the decades, for example out right criminality by the police seems to have been reduced, less "he fell down the stairs" violence, much better interviews, better evidence handling, it's a long list.

There is little the political parties can do regarding prejudice in the police. The police need to deal with that themselves and going by the sheer amount of dismissals and people leaving the job, there is evidence a lot of bad apples are leaving the barrel. Indeed, the police, more than any other profession, are clearing out the wrong'uns. You will not get a prejudice free police until you have a pretty prejudice free society, as it is impossible to ensure no one with any form of prejudice is recruited.

What the parties can do is properly fund the police. Much of the criticism directed at them, is down to issues over workload.

 

[Wudang]

The only political party who is serious about improving policing in the UK, is one that will hugely increase the policing budget. At the moment that is none of them, AFAIK. Proposals, such as unified forces will have limited if not impact, as seen when all the Scottish forces were merged. In the end, it does not matter how you cut up the cake, when the cake is always the same size.

There is one alternative. Despite police failings, they constantly overwhelm the rest of the CJ system. There are huge trial backlogs and nowhere near enough rehabilitation, probation and prison places. If that part worked, there would be fewer repeat offenders and more of a deterrence. But, that solution also needs large amounts of money.

True this. A number of legal commentators I follow are very clear on this. Also anecdotally, the small island I grew up on used to have a regular Sheriff's court on the island for your run of the mill breach, assault etc. To save costs they closed it so if you're a witness you get told to catch the ferry, take a train to the town with a court, wait, usually find the hearing is cancelled or delayed so you head back having wasted a day, numbed your bum, drank bad coffee/tea etc. So witnesses stopped attending, cases weren't followed up etc. This would have been 15 years back or so and I doubt it's improved.

 

[bluesjnr]

You said, in your previous post "By magic no further checks were required.". But that is an unevidenced assumption, as he cuts out part of the video.

I acknowledged, by use of the word, "further", that he gave his details. That shouldn't be hard for you to parse.

You, yourself agree that no search was carried out. This was despite the assertion that it was going to happen because there was no way, as the officer said, that he wasn't guilty of some offence. She said, in as many words, that she couldn't think of any reason why he wasn't.

So, his details were checked and as if by magic that check cleared her mind and no further checks were required.

Of course you would have engaged him is a different way and you think your way is the best. You assume the male would have cooperated with you and you fail to explain what you would have done if he did not, though, it is clear that you would have just let him refuse to cooperate and walk away. If you were a police officer you would soon get the reputation of being an easy touch, scared of confrontation, unable to assert yourself and no one would want to work with you. If you were known to the local community, criminals would not be in the slightest bit worried about you.

This paragraph is interesting and very telling. It shines a light on your time as police officer as well as confirming a number of accusations often made against the police.

Let me summarise - my (fictional remember) attempt to engage the guy in a friendly and open way makes me, to a police officer, an easy touch, a coward, unassertive and not trustworthy enough to work with.

You would have, if you'd still been working, and as you have here, taken that one instance and used it make up not one, not two, not three, but four extremely negative observations. Observations that are entirely spun out of a twisted mind set. The very mind set that..... wait for it. Looks to put people in the worst possible light or, to put it another way, on the wrong side of the law.

This isn't the first time I've observed this in our interaction.

 

[bluesjnr]

True this. A number of legal commentators I follow are very clear on this. Also anecdotally, the small island I grew up on used to have a regular Sheriff's court on the island for your run of the mill breach, assault etc. To save costs they closed it so if you're a witness you get told to catch the ferry, take a train to the town with a court, wait, usually find the hearing is cancelled or delayed so you head back having wasted a day, numbed your bum, drank bad coffee/tea etc. So witnesses stopped attending, cases weren't followed up etc. This would have been 15 years back or so and I doubt it's improved.

It was for many, a well paid day out. All costs involved in attendance were reimbursed the same day. Many employers would give you the time off without docking your pay, particularly if you were salaried.

 

[Wudang]

A day out? In Paisley?

 

[Nessie]

I acknowledged, by use of the word, "further", that he gave his details. That shouldn't be hard for you to parse.

You, yourself agree that no search was carried out. This was despite the assertion that it was going to happen because there was no way, as the officer said, that he wasn't guilty of some offence. She said, in as many words, that she couldn't think of any reason why he wasn't.

So, his details were checked and as if by magic that check cleared her mind and no further checks were required.

This paragraph is interesting and very telling. It shines a light on your time as police officer as well as confirming a number of accusations often made against the police.

Let me summarise - my (fictional remember) attempt to engage the guy in a friendly and open way makes me, to a police officer, an easy touch, a coward, unassertive and not trustworthy enough to work with.

You would have, if you'd still been working, and as you have here, taken that one instance and used it make up not one, not two, not three, but four extremely negative observations. Observations that are entirely spun out of a twisted mind set. The very mind set that..... wait for it. Looks to put people in the worst possible light or, to put it another way, on the wrong side of the law.

This isn't the first time I've observed this in our interaction.

You do not know what happened when he cut the video. He said it was because he did not want to record his details being given and it is likely he kept not recording for the details to be checked and potentially a search.

You criticise me, for my critiquing you as an armchair expert who fantasises you would deal with situations better that those with training and experience. You ironically look to put the police in the worst possible light.

I worked with cops who wanted to work the way you do by avoiding any sort of confrontation and unable to assert themselves. If we saw or got a report of anyone acting suspiciously, they would want to turn a blind eye and go the other way. A police full of cops like that, would rapidly prove itself ineffective.

 

[Nessie]

A day out? In Paisley?

The place in Scotland struggling the most with regards to policing is the Isle of Bute. It is often covered temporarily by cops sent for a day, or night out, or else it would have no police at all.

 

[Wudang]

The place in Scotland struggling the most with regards to policing is the Isle of Bute. It is often covered temporarily by cops sent for a day, or night out, or else it would have no police at all.

That’s where my brother was a custody officer until he died in 2013. Then there was I believe at least 10 officers attended his wake. I haven’t been back since his son left.

 

[Wudang]

They were already stretched as they'd been used to the occasional drunk & disorderly, less common since the Glasgow Fair saw people preferring to "eat saturated fats in a warmer climate" (Chris Brookmyre). Then some bright spark who'd never seen Trainspotting decided that what Glasgow junkies needed was some nice fresh air and moved a lot there. Naturally supply meets demand and their suppliers followed them. Combine that with the lack of job opportunities - often seasonal and it's difficult to get off benefits for seasonal work and then start again - and their market expands.
As an aside - link to a Damien Dempsey song about being cajoled to give drugs a try.

 

[catsmate]

Shades of MacBride's Logan McRae books.

 

[bluesjnr]

You do not know what happened when he cut the video. He said it was because he did not want to record his details being given and it is likely he kept not recording for the details to be checked and potentially a search.

Possibly, but you agreed that the search likely didn't happen earlier so, you need to make up your mind. Or, I suggest we let it go here and, if you want, you can have the last word on this one

You criticise me, for my critiquing you as an armchair expert

Never attributed any level of expertise to myself, I simply gave you my perspective. Added to that, I didn't read any critique from you, just a series of offensive characteristics.

who fantasises you would deal with situations better that those with training and experience.

Never said that I would do it better. What I did do was offer a different, less combative, approach that I insisted would have ended with the same outcome. I haven't changed my mind despite your, er..... hmm... what was it you called it? Critique...

You ironically look to put the police in the worst possible light.

There's no irony in that, it's my raison d'être in this thread. I've said this more than once.

Where the irony exists is in the fact that you can't see that the police constantly show there selves in the worst possible light without me having to go looking for examples.

I worked with cops who wanted to work the way you do by avoiding any sort of confrontation and unable to assert themselves.

There's nothing in my specific example with this specific case that suggests that I would, at all times, avoid confrontation or be unable to assert myself. I just don't think that the officer handled things very well.

If we saw or got a report of anyone acting suspiciously, they would want to turn a blind eye and go the other way.

Nor is there anything in my example that gives rise to you asserting such craven behaviour from me in any fantasy future.

A police full of cops like that, would rapidly prove itself ineffective.

This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time.

A quick Google brought up these AI responses from a variety of (but not limited to) sites like - gov.uk, The Guardian and The Police Federation amongst others.

"The standard of service provided by UK police forces has objectively declined over the last decade, primarily driven by severe investigative backlogs, a collapse in visibility, and a series of systemic integrity scandals."

"Victims face slow response times and inadequate follow-ups. Forces are increasingly castigated for issuing "just a crime number" for volume offences like burglary or street robbery rather than sending an officer."

"Even though overall physical crime is lower historically, the standard of solving crime has fallen. A notable YouGov poll revealed that 64% of crime victims were dissatisfied with the outcome of their cases."

"Data from the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) highlights that roughly 20% of modern public complaints focus on the misuse of police powers and procedural violations, while 13% focus on outright unprofessional or discourteous behaviour by individual officers." My bolding, just to make sure you don't miss this one.

The Angiolini Enquiry finding exposed -

"shocking metrics regarding the institutional failures, data blind spots, and systemic gaps that allow predatory men to operate both inside police forces and in public spaces."

Tell me again how, to use your phrase from earlier, "the likes of me", would make the police force less effective.

 

[bluesjnr]

Here's how an "effective" police force works in the UK.

A police force that, if I was a serving officer, the "likes of me", with my namby, pamby ways would render ineffective.

It's a tough read which includes graphic descriptions of strip searches and references to domestic violence.

If you don't want to read it then here's a 5min summary.

 

[Darat]

No need to watch it, the title "Greater Manchester Police abused power to demean and criminalise victims and suspects" says it all, do you really need to see a video to tell you that water is wet? Over 40 years ago they were doing that, it would seem they have not quite got rid of all the singular and only one bad apples in the last 40 years. Or is the barrell bad?