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Australia's Gun Problem

arthwollipot said:
Why? Is breaking the law something you choose to do often?
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Whether or not to break the law is a choice I make every single time the law in question comes into play.

In contrast "I had no choice, the law made me do it" isn't really something that ever comes into play for me. It certainly doesn't come into play immediately prior to me saying it would be my choice even if the law weren't in play.

I understand this can be difficult to understand, for people whose entire morality hinges on what the law tells them, except when it doesn't, except when it does, except when it doesn't, except when it does.
 
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arthwollipot said:
Once can certainly choose to break the law and be a criminal, yes.
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We are frequently told (usually in regards to drugs and prostitution) that Prohibition didn't work, so we shouldn't expect anything but a thriving and violent black market for guns, should we try to restrict them. Didn't seem to happen in 'Straya and the UK though? That tells me the people were more on board right out of the gate. In the States, I don't see that kind of widespread support. Guns are really, really tied into our identity, both individual and national.
arthwollipot said:
Agreed, but you have to consider the risk vs benefit. The risk is that you are endangering yourself and others, and almost certainly taking and losing lives every time you use it. The benefit is that very rarely a crime of some kind might be prevented.

Which is worth the risk?
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Ya agreed. but a different argument. If that was the justification used in Australia, sport shooting and collecting would be scoffed at as a justifiable reason to buy guns too.

I mean, if that was the reasoning, only military, law enforcement, and pest control would have legit need for a firearm. For anyone else it's a very deadly toy. Unless, as I keep saying, you want one just in case your very life is threatened in your home.
arthwollipot said:
Exactly. America, comparatively, is an extremely unsafe place, mostly because the country is awash with deadly weapons.
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I'd humbly opine that it is 'unsafe' because violence and power are worshipped like a God over here.The guns didn't cause it; the culture did.

In my state of NJ, there is no open or concealed carry of firearms (technically since the Constitutional Carry thing came about, it could change, but in practice there are still no legal guns being carried legally. The process has built in failures). Yet we still have some pretty rough areas, and illegal guns all over the place, despite the harsh penalties for illegal ownership/carry (see prohibition argument above).
 
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theprestige said:
Yes, and I think it's weird when someone says "I don't have a choice, the law made me do it", especially when they go on to say it would be their choice even if the law didn't make them do it.
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Why?
How else should I have stored them?
 
Andy_Ross said:
Why?
How else should I have stored them?
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However you wanted to store them. If you believe that you should store them according to the law, that's your choice. The law didn't force you to choose that. You make it clear that it's your choice when you say that you would have chosen this even if the law didn't require it.
 
theprestige said:
However you wanted to store them. If you believe that you should store them according to the law, that's your choice. The law didn't force you to choose that. You make it clear that it's your choice when you say that you would have chosen this even if the law didn't require it.
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Yes, When I worked with firearms they were stored in locked racks inside locked armouries and ammunition was stored separately in locked magazine safes.
My last job in the Navy was ashore in Portsmouth as an armourer.
As well as checking and repairing them my job was to sign them in and out and to issue ammunition.
I didn't feel comfortable storing my own guns and ammunition any differently.
 
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Andy_Ross said:
Yes, When I worked with firearms they were stored in locked racks inside locked armouries and ammunition was stored separately in locked magazine safes.
My last job in the Navy was ashore in Portsmouth as an armourer.
As well as checking and repairing them my job was to sign them in and out and to issue ammunition.
I didn't feel comfortable storing my own guns and ammunition any differently.
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Tell us more about how you didn't choose to store your guns and ammo in one way or another.
 
Thermal said:
I mean, if that was the reasoning, only military, law enforcement, and pest control would have legit need for a firearm. For anyone else it's a very deadly toy. Unless, as I keep saying, you want one just in case your very life is threatened in your home.
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Ibid. Section 12:

12 Genuine reasons for having a licence(cf APMC 3, 1990 Reg cl 22A)
(1) The Commissioner must not issue a licence that authorises the possession and use of a firearm unless the Commissioner is satisfied that the applicant has a genuine reason for possessing or using the firearm.
(2) An applicant does not have a genuine reason for possessing or using a firearm if the applicant intends to possess or use the firearm for any of the following reasons—
(a) personal protection or the protection of any other person,
(b) the protection of property (other than in circumstances constituting a genuine reason as set out in the Table to this section).
(3) Subsection (2) does not limit the reasons which the Commissioner may be satisfied are not genuine reasons for the purposes of justifying the possession or use of a firearm.
(4) Subject to this Act, an applicant for a licence has a genuine reason for possessing or using a firearm if the applicant—
(a) states that he or she intends to possess or use the firearm for any one or more of the reasons set out in the Table to this section, and
(b) is able to produce evidence to the Commissioner that he or she satisfies the requirements specified in respect of any such reason.

Table
Reason: sport/target shooting
The applicant must be a current member of a shooting club approved by the Commissioner in accordance with the regulations, and which conducts competitions or activities requiring the use of the firearm for which the licence is sought.

Reason: recreational hunting/vermin control
The applicant must—
(a) be the owner or occupier of rural land, or
(b) produce proof of permission given by the owner or occupier of rural land, or by an officer or employee of the National Parks and Wildlife Service, the Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development or other authority prescribed by the regulations, to shoot on rural land, or
(b1) produce proof of permission given by a land manager within the meaning of the Forestry Act 2012 to shoot on land in respect of which the land manager is authorised to exercise functions as land manager under that Act, or
(c) be a current member of a hunting club approved by the Commissioner in accordance with the regulations.
The regulations may provide for the manner and form in which any such permission is to be given, the extent to which it operates, and how it is to be produced as evidence by the applicant. A person does not, so long as the person is authorised to give permission to shoot on land referred to in paragraph (b) or (b1), incur any liability merely because the person gives the applicant permission to shoot on the land concerned.

Reason: primary production
The applicant must—
(a) be a person whose occupation is the business of a primary producer, or who is the owner, lessee or manager of land used for primary production, and
(b) state that he or she intends to use the firearm solely in connection with farming or grazing activities (including the suppression of vertebrate pest animals on the land concerned).

Reason: vertebrate pest animal control
The applicant must be—
(a) a professional contract shooter engaged or employed in controlling vertebrate pest animals on rural land, or
(b) a person employed by or in, or authorised by, a government agency prescribed by the regulations that has functions relating to the control or suppression of vertebrate pest animals, or
(c) a person whose occupation is the business of a primary producer, or who is the owner, lessee or manager of land used for primary production, and who is participating in an authorised campaign conducted by or on behalf of a government agency or public authority to eradicate large feral animals or animals that are affected by brucellosis or tuberculosis.

Reason: business or employment
The applicant must demonstrate that it is necessary in the conduct of the applicant’s business or employment to possess or use the firearm for which the licence is sought.

Reason: occupational requirements relating to rural purposes
The applicant must be employed or engaged in a rural occupation that requires the possession or use of the firearm for which the licence is sought.

Reason: animal welfare
The applicant must be—
(a) a person who, under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979, is an appointed officer employed by an approved charitable organisation, or
(b) a veterinary practitioner, or
(c) a person who is employed in the Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development or is a member of staff of Local Land Services and who has responsibility for animal welfare, or
(d) an owner, transporter, drover or other handler of animals who may need to destroy animals to avoid suffering.

Reason: firearms collection
The applicant must—
(a) be a current member of a collectors’ society or club approved by the Commissioner in accordance with the regulations, and
(b) provide a written statement by that collectors’ society or club confirming that the applicant’s firearms collection has a genuine commemorative, historical, thematic or financial value.
 
theprestige said:
However you wanted to store them. If you believe that you should store them according to the law, that's your choice. The law didn't force you to choose that. You make it clear that it's your choice when you say that you would have chosen this even if the law didn't require it.
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Following the law is not a choice. It's a requirement.
 
arthwollipot said:
Ibid. Section 12:

12 Genuine reasons for having a licence(cf APMC 3, 1990 Reg cl 22A)
(1) The Commissioner must not issue a licence that authorises the possession and use of a firearm unless the Commissioner is satisfied that the applicant has a genuine reason for possessing or using the firearm.
(2) An applicant does not have a genuine reason for possessing or using a firearm if the applicant intends to possess or use the firearm for any of the following reasons—
(a) personal protection or the protection of any other person,
(b) the protection of property (other than in circumstances constituting a genuine reason as set out in the Table to this section).
(3) Subsection (2) does not limit the reasons which the Commissioner may be satisfied are not genuine reasons for the purposes of justifying the possession or use of a firearm.
(4) Subject to this Act, an applicant for a licence has a genuine reason for possessing or using a firearm if the applicant—
(a) states that he or she intends to possess or use the firearm for any one or more of the reasons set out in the Table to this section, and
(b) is able to produce evidence to the Commissioner that he or she satisfies the requirements specified in respect of any such reason.

Table
Reason: sport/target shooting
The applicant must be a current member of a shooting club approved by the Commissioner in accordance with the regulations, and which conducts competitions or activities requiring the use of the firearm for which the licence is sought.

Reason: recreational hunting/vermin control
The applicant must—
(a) be the owner or occupier of rural land, or
(b) produce proof of permission given by the owner or occupier of rural land, or by an officer or employee of the National Parks and Wildlife Service, the Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development or other authority prescribed by the regulations, to shoot on rural land, or
(b1) produce proof of permission given by a land manager within the meaning of the Forestry Act 2012 to shoot on land in respect of which the land manager is authorised to exercise functions as land manager under that Act, or
(c) be a current member of a hunting club approved by the Commissioner in accordance with the regulations.
The regulations may provide for the manner and form in which any such permission is to be given, the extent to which it operates, and how it is to be produced as evidence by the applicant. A person does not, so long as the person is authorised to give permission to shoot on land referred to in paragraph (b) or (b1), incur any liability merely because the person gives the applicant permission to shoot on the land concerned.

Reason: primary production
The applicant must—
(a) be a person whose occupation is the business of a primary producer, or who is the owner, lessee or manager of land used for primary production, and
(b) state that he or she intends to use the firearm solely in connection with farming or grazing activities (including the suppression of vertebrate pest animals on the land concerned).

Reason: vertebrate pest animal control
The applicant must be—
(a) a professional contract shooter engaged or employed in controlling vertebrate pest animals on rural land, or
(b) a person employed by or in, or authorised by, a government agency prescribed by the regulations that has functions relating to the control or suppression of vertebrate pest animals, or
(c) a person whose occupation is the business of a primary producer, or who is the owner, lessee or manager of land used for primary production, and who is participating in an authorised campaign conducted by or on behalf of a government agency or public authority to eradicate large feral animals or animals that are affected by brucellosis or tuberculosis.

Reason: business or employment
The applicant must demonstrate that it is necessary in the conduct of the applicant’s business or employment to possess or use the firearm for which the licence is sought.

Reason: occupational requirements relating to rural purposes
The applicant must be employed or engaged in a rural occupation that requires the possession or use of the firearm for which the licence is sought.

Reason: animal welfare
The applicant must be—
(a) a person who, under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979, is an appointed officer employed by an approved charitable organisation, or
(b) a veterinary practitioner, or
(c) a person who is employed in the Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development or is a member of staff of Local Land Services and who has responsibility for animal welfare, or
(d) an owner, transporter, drover or other handler of animals who may need to destroy animals to avoid suffering.

Reason: firearms collection
The applicant must—
(a) be a current member of a collectors’ society or club approved by the Commissioner in accordance with the regulations, and
(b) provide a written statement by that collectors’ society or club confirming that the applicant’s firearms collection has a genuine commemorative, historical, thematic or financial value.
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Yes, that's sure enough what we are talking about. Thoughts?

Eta: restating what the laws are does not defend the irrationality of them. Which is what we were talking about.
 
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Thermal said:
No idea where to find those kind of stats,
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Wrt killing of women, the best source for the UK is the Femicide Census.
In the UK (and Ireland) most women (50-55%) are killed by 'intimate partners'. Including family (especially sons, a rather horrifying 17% in recent years) and the total is around 75%. Women are very rarely, <10%, killed by strangers

Thermal said:
nor do they have anything to do with my argument, which is that saying self defense... the most basic conceivable right... is not a good enough reason for owning a firearm, but shooting at paper targets is, does not make a lot of sense.
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To you perhaps, to others it is quite sensible.
 
Darat said:
How effective are guns owned for self-defence at self-defence?
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A very easy answer from AI

Guns kept for self-defense most frequently kill family members, intimate partners, or the gun owners themselves rather than attacking criminals. [1, 2]
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No doubt gun owners in this thread will assert that they are superior marksmen and would use Rambo skills.
 
Thermal said:
I mean, the logic of "if people have guns, they are likely to shoot each other, and we don't want that...
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I'm pretty sure the numbers speak for themselves.

Number 1 cause of child deaths in USA: gunshot wounds.

In NZ & Aussie, they're so rare they don't make the table.

From mass shootings to suicides, USA is disgracefully far ahead of other western nations.

I repeat, you have your laws and we have ours. A proposal to allow more access to guns here and Aussie would be political suicide. We're very happy with the current laws.

theprestige said:
Because that's what home invaders are entitled to, as a human right:
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Congratulations on making the year's dumbest post. Everyone else can take the next four months off, because that absurd nonsense won't be beaten.

Darat said:
How effective are guns owned for self-defence at self-defence?
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Funny how that question has been avoided.
 
arthwollipot said:
You said:


Tell me about the times you choose to break the law.
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It's not clear to me that examples will help you understand the concept that laws are things we choose to follow, not requirements that rob us of agency.

But I'm sure Australian prisons are full of examples that prove my point, if that's what your hang up is.



ETA: I mean, as amusing as it would be, I'm not going to confess to crimes just to prove you wrong. But I don't really have to.

The Law: No murder.

Luigi Mangione: Not murdering people is a choice, not a requirement.

Arthwollipot: T̷͎̜̈́̄̈̽͋̈́͘ỳ̴̗̦̺̩͈̠̺͕͇̓̚͜p̴̧̠͍̭͓̥̃͋̉̈́̍̔̚͠͝͝ę̷̧̛͖̫̣͙̗̬̟̄̒̈ͅ ö̷͉͓̗́̒͝͠r̴͇͈̗̤̬̳͊͊̏̚͜͝ p̶̩̬̦̯̔͆͛̈́̽͝å̶̢͓̣̼͓͈̺̝̌͠s̶̨̧̠̜̜͂̾͆͛̔͐̆͘t̶̢̟̯̍͆̓̅̊̈̌e̶̛̗̻̱͕͓̲̹̊̐̆̓͊͝͠ t̶̢̧̩̝̲͓̝̠̩̆͐͒̒̽̓̐̓̚è̷̥͋̔͗̈́́̇̚̚x̴̡̨͚̟͓͚̟̤̱̔̒͒̆̃͗͊̅̚͘t̴̯̬̓ t̷͚̀̿̈͆͛̀o̸̧̟̜̦̥̓̆̇̃͘ ḡ̷̨̩̜̘͎͉̣̝͌́̈́́̈l̷͓̿ḯ̵̝͉̋̒̐t̸̼̝͊̾̈̀͜c̴̖͙͊̈́͑͐̋̽͒̄͠h̴̢͔͖̙͖̪̆͑̔͑̌͐̂̚.̵̧̛̱͚̙.̸̦͍̭̪̳̞̇͒́͑͗̇͛́̕͜͜͝.̷̻̭͓̙͌̀͆̀́̇̌͝
 
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