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Apollo 11 Moon Landing Revisited: Hoax ~vs~ Debunk

There's something so special about touching history.
We had a thread about that museum where you got to touch stuff and that kid destroyed something valuable. But yes, interacting with an artifact is transformative. I have a bunch of flown space hardware. It's the same as unflown hardware for all intents and purposes, but it's still magical to hold it in your hand.

Honestly, anyone that looks at the absolute amazing achievement, on behalf of all of us, that the Apollo Astronauts achieved and thinks "I want to try and pull this down", well, I can only pity them.
See, there you go being all hero-worshippy and emotionally compromised.
 
I thought this thread was dead, but no, apparently Vixen managed to resurrect it. So, ehm... Kudos? What's in store for us next, I wonder? Can we top such instant classics as '1/3 gravity doesn't make your backpack any less lighter' and 'as we've repeatedly tried to explain to you, you can see the Moon from Earth'?
 
No sure if this is useful, but I busted out my US Army Operations manual [FM-100].

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The point being if radiation was a problem for the astronauts they would have known. It's all about time-of-exposure. A quick lookup shows the average daily rate of RADs is .137. I'm not doctor, but I think it's okay to walk on the moon...as long as you're wearing your space suit...
 
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No sure if this is useful, but I busted out my US Army Operations manual [FM-100].
This is for people sunbathing on the test range. Obviously those doses are extreme.

A quick lookup shows the average daily rate of RADs is .137.
In the old measurements, 0.137 rem, not rads. 0.032 rads per day absorbed dose, tweaked through the biological effect factors for the radiation types present on the Moon giving 0.137 rem biological dose equivalent or 1370 µSv. So no, not especially biologically significant.

Yes, this comes from modern data confirmed by non-U.S. sources.

I'm not doctor...
Know who else isn't a doctor? All the conspiracy theorists who say the radiation on the Moon would prevent human exploration. Nor are they health physicists, or scientists of any kind.
 
No sure if this is useful, but I busted out my US Army Operations manual [FM-100].

View attachment 74607


The point being if radiation was a problem for the astronauts they would have known. It's all about time-of-exposure. A quick lookup shows the average daily rate of RADs is .137. I'm not doctor, but I think it's okay to walk on the moon...as long as you're wearing your space suit...
Think of those at Chernobyl.
 
There's something so special about touching history. It's like Roman coins, my 'O' level history teacher had some that he brought in so we could hold them and it connects you to history in a way that just reading about it can't. I had a few, but they along with some more valuable precious metal ones 'dissappeared' during the one house move we used professional movers). Honestly, anyone that looks at the absolute amazing achievement, on behalf of all of us, that the Apollo Astronauts achieved and thinks "I want to try and pull this down", well, I can only pity them.
I remember touching Kufu's pyramid for the first time, and feeling the weight of all the years, anf of the culture that created them, and it almost made me cry (ok, delete the "almost"). The moon landing is a similar feeling - all that knowledge, all that time, from the first prehistoric astronomers to that? It is awe-inspiring.

Vixen said somewhere that JayUtah was gushing sbout something, which made me smile - i do not consider Jay a gusher (not in this context at least, he may well gush about all sorts of things IRL). But I am, I gush about all sorts of things; nature, culture knowledge, science, and I pity those who never do, who are never overcome by the sheer greatness of it all.
 
The Outer Space Treaty of 1967, to which the U.S. and the Soviet Union were both signatories, allows the free use of the Moon and forbids attempting to establish sovereignty. Any nation can mine the Moon. No nation can forbid any other nation from mining the Moon. The modern legal interpretation is that it's akin to commercial fishing in international waters.
Until Donnie signs an Executive Order to make it US Territory...
 
This is for people sunbathing on the test range. Obviously those doses are extreme.


In the old measurements, 0.137 rem, not rads. 0.032 rads per day absorbed dose, tweaked through the biological effect factors for the radiation types present on the Moon giving 0.137 rem biological dose equivalent or 1370 µSv. So no, not especially biologically significant.

Yes, this comes from modern data confirmed by non-U.S. sources.


Know who else isn't a doctor? All the conspiracy theorists who say the radiation on the Moon would prevent human exploration. Nor are they health physicists, or scientists of any kind.

The question that always comes to my mind when hoaxers say things like: "the moon is highly radioactive" or: "moon dust is highly radioactive" is this: how do you know? What's the source for your data? If the Apollo moon landings were faked, which ones were real? Was Luna 16 real, for example? The Surveyor landings? Chang'e? Whence exactly are you getting your information about the lunar regolith or the lunar radiation environment, if the Apollo missions were fake? Be specific.

Mind you, I already know the answer. If Vixen actually had any data supporting her claims about how radioactive the moon is, she would be able to answer my questions about how many microsieverts per hour an astronaut gets from the moon. She can't, because she hasn't.
 
This is for people sunbathing on the test range. Obviously those doses are extreme.


In the old measurements, 0.137 rem, not rads. 0.032 rads per day absorbed dose, tweaked through the biological effect factors for the radiation types present on the Moon giving 0.137 rem biological dose equivalent or 1370 µSv. So no, not especially biologically significant.

Yes, this comes from modern data confirmed by non-U.S. sources.


Know who else isn't a doctor? All the conspiracy theorists who say the radiation on the Moon would prevent human exploration. Nor are they health physicists, or scientists of any kind.
Do you think Tim Finch et. al. reads these posts?
 
Think of those at Chernobyl.
The problem is that too many people think of those at Chernobyl and consider that to be the baseline for all radiation exposure. This gives rise to what I named years ago as the Radiation Boogey Man. Without a correct understanding of how properly to handle the numbers associated with radiation and its mitigating factors, it's easy to just say any amount of radiation is something to be scared about.

The question that always comes to my mind when hoaxers say things like: "the moon is highly radioactive" or: "moon dust is highly radioactive" is this: how do you know? What's the source for your data?
It's almost always either conventional wisdom or some third-party summary.

The Surveyor landings?
Since you mentioned it, the Surveyor missions provided NASA with measurements of radiation coming off the lunar surface.

If Vixen actually had any data supporting her claims about how radioactive the moon is, she would be able to answer my questions about how many microsieverts per hour an astronaut gets from the moon. She can't, because she hasn't.
Even the claimants who can actually look up numbers then go on to fail to properly reckon the dosage. They really want there to be a simple answer obtained straightforwardly.

I sat with a TV producer once discussing how to present the radiation environment of the Van Allen belts in terms that a lay person could grasp. It's just not very easy. You have to be either accurate or concise. He kept asking things like, "What's the average amount of radiation?" You can't answer that for a phenomenon that varies by orders of magnitude across space, time, and several conceptual domains like particle flux and energy. Yes, it's possible to compute an average. But that average is meaningless as an indicator of experienced effect. If the freezer in your kitchen is at -10 ºC and your oven is at 180 ºC, is it meaningful to say the average temperature in your kitchen is 85 ºC?

Measuring an absorbed dose is comparatively straightforward. This is why the Apollo test regime included measuring the absorbed dose inside the command module on an unmanned trip into the part of the Van Allen belts where the astronauts were planning later to go.
 
I sat with a TV producer once discussing how to present the radiation environment of the Van Allen belts in terms that a lay person could grasp. It's just not very easy. You have to be either accurate or concise. He kept asking things like, "What's the average amount of radiation?" You can't answer that for a phenomenon that varies by orders of magnitude across space, time, and several conceptual domains like particle flux and energy. Yes, it's possible to compute an average. But that average is meaningless as an indicator of experienced effect. If the freezer in your kitchen is at -10 ºC and your oven is at 180 ºC, is it meaningful to say the average temperature in your kitchen is 85 ºC?
Not only that, but when they see the range of values, they're going to cherry-pick the extremes and say something like: "temperatures in the kitchen get as high as 180 degrees Celsius! Anyone walking into the kitchen would have been killed in minutes! The cake is a lie!"
 
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Not only that, but when they see the range of values, they're going to cherry-pick the extremes and say something like: "temperatures in the kitchen get as high as 180 degrees Celsius! Anyone walking into the kitchen would have been killed in minutes!
That's Weaver's dishonest approach to solar radiation. During extreme solar events, radiation levels can be dangerously high. But Weaver simply omits the conditions under which those happen and suggests instead that they would have made lunar exploration impossible.

The cake is a lie!"
All my attempts at baking are effectively fraudulent.
 

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