Did I claim that it was a brand-new invention?
Do the articles I link to claim that it was invented by 21 century porn?
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Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?
- Thread starter Poem
- Start date
Do the articles I link to claim that it was invented by 21 century porn?
I meant to answer this two years ago, but I got bored with the thread and forgot.
It's not something one can prove by means of an RCT, so I wouldn't cite any evidence.
When I have the time, I'll try to explain it using recognizable anecdotes and well-known facts.
The Guardian doesn't say that it didn't exist before. It says that strangulation during sex has become so common among young people. I get the impression that it has become more common in mainstream porn, not just in niche porn like BDSM where I assume it was always prevalent.
I haven't seen any statistics.
In a long-previous post I listed some of the more prevalent forms rape culture, that is, less than fully consensual sex and reproduction, has taken throughout known human history. To expand and claify the list a bit, these include:
free rein by tribe members or certain social classes to literally rape tribal outsiders or members of underclasses
slavery (which inevitably implies the previous form)
women in significant numbers forced into prostitution as the only means of survival
forced arranged marriage
very strong social and/or economic pressure to marry, including religious claims, partial or complete ostracism of unmarried adults, etc.
marital "rights" in the form of assumed permanent consent to sex on demand (only by the male of course) within a marriage
peer pressure in a permissive society
So here's the question: There appears to have been a few scattered examples of societies in which all of the above have been absent. The Quakers, for one. But, has there ever been a human culture that was in no way a rape culture, that managed to increase or at least maintain its own population?
Is rape culture actually avoidable, without falling behind in population and being absorbed/conquered by the more rapey culture next door? (I've also asked the same question about "resource depletion culture." I agree the answers might be unsettling.)
free rein by tribe members or certain social classes to literally rape tribal outsiders or members of underclasses
slavery (which inevitably implies the previous form)
women in significant numbers forced into prostitution as the only means of survival
forced arranged marriage
very strong social and/or economic pressure to marry, including religious claims, partial or complete ostracism of unmarried adults, etc.
marital "rights" in the form of assumed permanent consent to sex on demand (only by the male of course) within a marriage
peer pressure in a permissive society
So here's the question: There appears to have been a few scattered examples of societies in which all of the above have been absent. The Quakers, for one. But, has there ever been a human culture that was in no way a rape culture, that managed to increase or at least maintain its own population?
Is rape culture actually avoidable, without falling behind in population and being absorbed/conquered by the more rapey culture next door? (I've also asked the same question about "resource depletion culture." I agree the answers might be unsettling.)
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Yes, yes, men never choked women while abusing them, until some Galileo of Pornography discovered the practice.
Eppur si strangulare
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Of course rapists will do many of the same things that are done during consensual sex.
That doesn't mean that commonplace kink play between consenting adults is contributing to rape culture when a rapist does similar things
The prosecutor never saw a porno where 78 years' worth of rape-related felonies were pled down to two years' probation and charges dismissed. The judge never saw a porno where a court accepted such a plea deal. These two scumbags did far more to advance rape culture in our society, than did any of the pornographers that were in this rapist's feed.
He raped because he wanted to, and he thought he could get away with it. Porn didn't teach him that. His parents taught him that. His lawyer taught him that. The state prosecutor taught him that. The courts taught him that.
If he took his victims from behind, you'd be falling all over yourself, trying to convince us that doggy-style porn videos contribute to rape culture.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Already addressed in my follow-up post.
Seriously, why are you so set on making rape about porn? The worst rape cultures in human history, including some still extant, emerged before we had anything like the diversity of porn at scale that society enjoys today.
Did anybody claim that the judge was even watching porn? What does that have to do with anything?
I don't know why he did it, and I don't think you do either. What I said (and backed up with receipts) is that strangulation in straight and otherwise not 'kinky' sex may make young people think that it's what sex is supposed to be like. Especially if they never had any proper sex ed and were misled by porn instead.
Taking somebody from behind isn't rape culture, so no, I wouldn't. You seem to be falling over yourself trying to deny that strangulation becoming commonplace in straight, non-BDSM+ port may not convince young people that it's an ordinary part of ordinary sex, or as you would like to call it, "commonplace kink play," which it isn't.
And so bloody what? This is now the third time I tell you that I never claimed that strangulation in sex didn't exist before porn. Why does it upset you so much that I point out that strangulation in porn appears to be making strangulation more common when young people have sex?
This is not a confessional. I don't give a ◊◊◊◊ what kind of sex you're into if that's what makes it difficult for you to understand what I write.
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theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
The claim advanced by you and Poem is that porn contributes to the expansion of rape culture in our society.
My rebuttal is that the prosecutor and judge in this case contributed FAR more to the expansion of rape culture than any porn video did. To the point where whatever porn this rapist might have gotten ideas from doesn't even register on the scale of rape culture.
So yeah, the judge and the prosecutor didn't get their rape culture tendencies from porn. There is no porn of what they did. So why do you keep trying to make these rapes about porn?
Which has nothing to do with raping someone. Whatever a rapist thinks healthy sex is like, he also knows that rape isn't healthy sex.
And strangulation play also isn't rape culture. But here you are.
Rape isn't ordinary sex. Even rapists understand that what they're doing is not ordinary sex, no matter what they think is a part of ordinary sex.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
The topic is rape culture, not consensual sex culture.
It's not difficult at all for me to understand what you write. You write that porn encourages rape culture.
In posts 413 and 424, I described how shame impacts sexual fantasies and thus sex itself.
The first time I noticed this (without getting the concept quite right) was when I was 18 and doing the dishes. From the kitchen window, I could see kids playing in the courtyard when two very young boys (four or five years old) pushed a girl (late prepubescent or very early pubescent) up against a wall, lifted her skirt, pulled down her panties and then ran away. What made it particularly weird was that she was in no hurry to get her skirt down and her panties up while looking at the windows of the building as if she were both fearing and hoping that somebody was watching her. Besides, the boys were too small to have done what they did if she had put up any kind of resistance. It also didn't seem to be sexual to the boys in any way like it seemed to be to her.
In other words, she appeared to have used them to live out a fantasy of hers. I think it's more than likely that she even arranged it with them, i.e. persuaded them to do what they did.
It's not uncommon for children, even toddlers to come up with 'play scripts', which parents sometimes find disturbing because they don't remember doing so themselves at that age. It's also not uncommon for children to use these play scripts to create plays that let them get do something that's otherwise taboo, embarrassing, humiliating, shameful, but makes sense according to the script, e.g. playing doctor to see and maybe even touch each other undressed. It's a way of getting to do what you are not supposed to do but nevertheless desire to do, so you do it under the pretext of doing something else that lets you do the taboo thing as if doing the taboo thing weren't the actual purpose of what you're doing.
That's why I mentioned dialectics in one of the posts mentioned above:
1) You want to do something.
2) You can't just go ahead and do it because it's associated with shame or embarrassment.
3) The contradiction is solved by pretending that it isn't what it is.
The pretense helps you overcome the shame. It's a detour to overcome the shame, a hurdle you need to get past to fulfill your desire. It's the reason why humiliation in all other contexts is something people don't like and try to avoid, but when it has become an integral part of sexual fantasies, it has also become charged with lust – almost like the bell in the case of Pavlov's dog.
It is the reason why masochists see an act as liberating that in any other context would be the exact opposite: being tied up ('I literally can't resist') or humiliated ('This is embarrassing, but I can't be blamed'). In the case of sadists, what the whole BDSM scenario liberates them from is the embarrassment of being rejected: 'the object of my desire can't refuse, can't turn me down.'
I see no other explanation for the complicated scenario of whips and ropes and chains and uniforms, which would otherwise have no place in lovemaking and usually doesn't in normal relationships.
Neither is strangulation, by the way. Why the ◊◊◊◊ would somebody want to strangulate or even pretend to strangle somebody they're making love to? (This is not a rhetorical question!) People who are into that kind of thing usually can't come up with anything other than meaningless euphemisms, e.g. 'kink', which is just a way of avoiding having to explain anything at all – to oneself or others.
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I don't know what exactly Poem's claim is. I haven't followed this thread for years. My claim is that some porn contributes to and is a part of rape culture, strangulation porn being one kind.
It's possible that the prosecutor and judge contributed to rape culture. I haven't looked into what exactly they were doing. However, you don't seem to notice that when you say they do "FAR more to the expansion of rape culture than any porn video did," you still imply that some porn contributes to the expansion of rape culture, just not as much as that judge and prosecutor.
I never claimed that the judge and the prosecutor got their alleged rape-culture tendencies from porn, but I don't think any and all rapists actually know "that rape isn't healthy sex." And unlike you, apparently, I don't think strangulation is healthy sex.
Yes, here I am – saying that strangulation play is also unhealthy sex and contributes to rape culture. But correct me if I'm wrong, does all strangulation, particularly the strangulation that appears to have increased tremendously in otherwise mainstream ('vanilla') porn start with the actors carefully agreeing on their play script? 'And then when I think you're close to 'getting there', I'll pretend to be strangulating you.' How are impressionable teenagers supposed to know the difference without that kind of introduction? (And wouldn't a teenager scroll past that introduction anyway?)
No, rape isn't ordinary sex. Neither is strangulation. Not even people play-acting strangulation seem to understand that what they are doing isn't ordinary sex. Their brains have been ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up if they think strangulation is a part of ordinary sex.
Symptoms and Physical Exam Findings in Sexual Assault-related Non-fatal Strangulation (PMC, Feb 8, 2022)
As it should be! It can't happen too soon!
I do indeed! And I bring the recepts!
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theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
And I disagree with your claim. Porn contributes to sex culture. Commonplace sex acts may occur during rape, but that doesn't men that those acts contribute to rape culture.
You should look into what they were doing. The rapist admitted to committing acts of rape and violence. The maximum sentences for those acts added up to 78 years of prison time.
The prosecutor offered the rapist a deal: Admit to the acts, and the prosecutor would ask for a sentence of two years of probation, and all rape and violence charges dismissed. My claim is that reducing the consequences for rape contributes to rape culture. The prosecutor contributed to rape culture.
The judge accepted this deal. They didn't have to accept the deal. They could have accepted the rapist's admission, but rejected the prosecutor's proposed sentence, in favor of decades of prison time. My claim is that reducing the consequences for rape contributes to rape culture. The judge contributed to rape culture.
It's a figure of speech. Something is always far more than nothing. You inferred something from what I said, that I never implied. I know I didn't imply it, because it's not what I believe, and it's not what I meant. I apologize for causing you confusion.
Just to be clear, I will now say the same thing as before, the thing I mean and believe, in plain language: The judge and the prosecutor made contributions to rape culture. Pornography does not.
I have no opinion about that.
My position: Rape culture has nothing to do with pornography. Just like murder has nothing to do with violence in videogames. Poem thesis, that pornography is a link in the chain of effect that results in rape culture, is wrong. A man doesn't beat his wife because he saw it in a movie. A man doesn't rape a woman because he saw it in a porno. A woman doesn't murder her children or have an affair with her student because she read it in a book.
If this thread is to be about rape culture, then the discussion needs to move from porn to the actual societal factors that promote and enable rape culture. For example, this prosecutor and judge, who let off a violent rapist with a slap on the wrist. They are a link in the chain of effect.
Trausti
Illuminator
SpuriusMaximus
Penultimate Amazing
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Plus, most porn is about enthusiastically consenting adults. Even in situations that realistically wouldn't go that way. See The Pornomancer trope. But still, they are quite enthusiastic about it. And worst case it's exhibitionism that starts it, not actual sex assault.
I know there is some rape porn, because I'm told so, but I think so far in all these years I've only seen one "surprise sex" video that would qualify. And that was way back on VHS. She turned out to be overly enthusiastic about it, but ICK. Possibly some that I don't remember, my memory being what it is in my old age? Or maybe my brain blocks the memory?
Or maybe just a case of me not searching for it? Because with Bayesian recommendations based on previous viewing habits (think, the equivalent of Amazon's recommendations based on what you bought before or what other people who bought that have also bought,) I'm FAIRLY sure that people who rage about finding rape porn (or underage porn) everywhere are just telling us what they've been searching for before.
And probably just doing the old thing of assuming that if they rabidly protest it, surely nobody would suspect them. Kinda like how it regularly turns out that some preacher foaming at the mouth against gay sex... has hired teen gay prostitutes before
But anyway, I'm GUESSING that it can't be THAT common. Presumably because most people find it icky, rather than exciting.
I know there is some rape porn, because I'm told so, but I think so far in all these years I've only seen one "surprise sex" video that would qualify. And that was way back on VHS. She turned out to be overly enthusiastic about it, but ICK. Possibly some that I don't remember, my memory being what it is in my old age? Or maybe my brain blocks the memory?
Or maybe just a case of me not searching for it? Because with Bayesian recommendations based on previous viewing habits (think, the equivalent of Amazon's recommendations based on what you bought before or what other people who bought that have also bought,) I'm FAIRLY sure that people who rage about finding rape porn (or underage porn) everywhere are just telling us what they've been searching for before.
And probably just doing the old thing of assuming that if they rabidly protest it, surely nobody would suspect them. Kinda like how it regularly turns out that some preacher foaming at the mouth against gay sex... has hired teen gay prostitutes before
But anyway, I'm GUESSING that it can't be THAT common. Presumably because most people find it icky, rather than exciting.
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You guys are really enthusiastic about strangulation porn if only the actors exhibit enthusiasm (or are even overly enthusiastic) about it. It seems to have had quite an impact on you, so tell us more! How exactly did she express being overly enthusiastic about being strangulated? Or was she the strangulator and not the strangulatee? In that case: same question!
Who are those people "who rage about finding rape porn (or underage porn) everywhere" but "are just telling us what they've been searching for before?" Anybody we know? Or are you telling us that my links to the articles and reports I quoted in my most recent post only mention that "strangulation has become normalized" and is "linked to the influence of online pornography" because the writers have been searching for strangulation porn, and now they write reports rabidly protesting against it because they're trying to avoid suspicions of being into (underage?) rape porn?
I'm surprised that your search history resulted in finding a VHS tape with an example of overly enthusiastic strangulation! That's a new one.
But, of course, you yourself only "know there is some rape porn, because [you're] told so."
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Unlike 20-25 years ago, nowadays it's actually possible to google for "strangulation" + "porn" without a single porn site popping up! Back in the day, I made the mistake of having my high-school students search for "Oscar Wilde" when we were reading The Importance of Being Earnest, and some of the first links to pop up were about British porn star Wilde Oscar! That doesn't happen anymore. Some of the algorithms have actually improved internet searches.
Or it could be because Oscar has retired.
Who are those people "who rage about finding rape porn (or underage porn) everywhere" but "are just telling us what they've been searching for before?" Anybody we know? Or are you telling us that my links to the articles and reports I quoted in my most recent post only mention that "strangulation has become normalized" and is "linked to the influence of online pornography" because the writers have been searching for strangulation porn, and now they write reports rabidly protesting against it because they're trying to avoid suspicions of being into (underage?) rape porn?
I'm surprised that your search history resulted in finding a VHS tape with an example of overly enthusiastic strangulation! That's a new one.
But, of course, you yourself only "know there is some rape porn, because [you're] told so."
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Unlike 20-25 years ago, nowadays it's actually possible to google for "strangulation" + "porn" without a single porn site popping up! Back in the day, I made the mistake of having my high-school students search for "Oscar Wilde" when we were reading The Importance of Being Earnest, and some of the first links to pop up were about British porn star Wilde Oscar! That doesn't happen anymore. Some of the algorithms have actually improved internet searches.
Or it could be because Oscar has retired.