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Zohran Mamdani

We're talking groceries here. Essentials. Stuff you literally cannot live without.
And I'm saying that, contra Brainster, if there werf enough paying customers in a neighborhood that a Mamdani-mart can't serve all of them timely enough to prevent hours-long lines, there'd already be a profitable grocery store in that neighborhood, because of all the paying customers there.
 
Was there anything wrong with offering tax incentives amd/or regulatory easements, to encourage desired behaviors from private companies? Any particular reason Mamdani needed to reinvent the wheel from first principles?

Remember Ocasio-Cortez battling against having Amazon put up its second headquarters building in her district because they were getting tax breaks? She thought by squashing that deal the money used for the tax breaks could be used for infrastructure. Of course the money never existed; it was breaks on taxes that Amazon would have paid, but since they moved to Virginia instead, those taxes never got paid. These DSA dolts have zero understanding of basic finance.

It appears that Mamdani may have done some creative accounting of his own to come up with $70 million for this plan.

Specifically, he wrongly believes that the city is spending $140 million to subsidize private grocery stores, and he thinks he can take half of that money and use it to build government groceries.
But:

Here are the hard numbers: All in all, the city has given up about $30 million in tax revenue through this program. In the last six years, since FRESH got into full swing, the program has reduced revenue by about $20 million total, according to the city’s estimates. That is, it costs an average of $3.3 million per year. So, this program would take 42 years to cost the city the $140 million that Mamdani says “the city is set to spend” on it.
So where did he get $140 million? A graphic on the city's website said (at the time) that was how much had been invested in NYC since the program began. The city has since updated the page to make it more clear:

$177 Million (updated). The amount of private capital invested in NYC's economy since the program began.

That's right, Mamdani was counting the money that private capital had invested in building stores due to the FRESH program, not government money.
 
And I'm saying that, contra Brainster, if there werf enough paying customers in a neighborhood that a Mamdani-mart can't serve all of them timely enough to prevent hours-long lines, there'd already be a profitable grocery store in that neighborhood, because of all the paying customers there.
You know these locations are chosen specifically because they are underserved, right?
 
Remember Ocasio-Cortez battling against having Amazon put up its second headquarters building in her district because they were getting tax breaks?
No, I don't remember things that didn't happen
She thought by squashing that deal the money used for the tax breaks could be used for infrastructure. Of course the money never existed; it was breaks on taxes that Amazon would have paid, but since they moved to Virginia instead, those taxes never got paid. These DSA dolts have zero understanding of basic finance.
Ya, that's not how that happened.

I get she's your boogeyman these days, but you'll need to do better to make her seem scary.
It appears that Mamdani may have done some creative accounting of his own to come up with $70 million for this plan.


But:


So where did he get $140 million? A graphic on the city's website said (at the time) that was how much had been invested in NYC since the program began. The city has since updated the page to make it more clear:



That's right, Mamdani was counting the money that private capital had invested in building stores due to the FRESH program, not government money.
You reaallllyyy want those poor people hungry.
 
It is because they are simply not in certain neighborhoods. These are called food deserts and you have to make do with what you can get at the bodega.

Of course if it is not profitable to get people food it the only moral solution in capitalism is to let them starve.
I am not even informed enough if food deserts exist as described. Ill have to do a deep dive at some point to see what the specific model of it claims and if it is accurate.

You spend $1,000\mth at the supermarket? Jesus Christ. I just fed 5 adults (my parents and son were staying with us) for a month on less than that.

They run at a 1-3% profit margin overall, but I don't think that's specific to just you.


Hopefully it's a decent budget, but I don't think it will require as much as people are implying it will. There are plenty of ways to cut down prices when your goal isn't profit but sustainability.
Household of 6 with 2 teenagers, although to be fair the little ones would use half that budget on berries if allowed. Would average out to 2$ a meal per person or so plus snacks, which doesnt seem lavish to me.

Sustained profit is a business goal though. For me, each business is competing against nearly 2 dozen other options for my money. If there were easy ways to drop prices, pick up share and remain profitable it would be done.
 
I am not even informed enough if food deserts exist as described. Ill have to do a deep dive at some point to see what the specific model of it claims and if it is accurate.
From a 2025 report by CUNY, Yes, food deserts exist in New York City, affecting more than two dozen low-income neighborhoods—particularly in parts of the Bronx, Brooklyn, Harlem, and Staten Island. Residents in these areas face limited access to large supermarkets and fresh produce, forcing a heavy reliance on corner bodegas and fast food

 
I am not even informed enough if food deserts exist as described. Ill have to do a deep dive at some point to see what the specific model of it claims and if it is accurate.
There are instances of true food deserts; usually the result of crime. But the discussion here isn't really using that measure, I think. If you look at the link ZiprHead posted it defines a food desert as an area where there is little access to "nutritious" food. And that's where it gets kind of silly. There is an apparent assumption that people in these areas want "nutritious" food, and that the lack of "nutritious" options has nothing to do with market demand. When a new supermarket opened in the Bronx, thanks to tax incentives, it did not change consumer behavior. There was no increase in vegetable or healthy food consumption. The Introduction of a Supermarket via Tax-Credits in a Low-Income Area: The Influence on Purchasing and Consumption
 
You know these locations are chosen specifically because they are underserved, right?
Yes. My thesis is that they're underserved because there's not enough paying customers there to justify opening a for-profit grocery store there, let alone enough paying customers to create intolerably long lines and wait times. From there, it follows that Brainster's concern about long lines an d wait times at these stores is probably baseless. Which is what I'm saying.
 
There are instances of true food deserts; usually the result of crime. But the discussion here isn't really using that measure, I think. If you look at the link ZiprHead posted it defines a food desert as an area where there is little access to "nutritious" food. And that's where it gets kind of silly. There is an apparent assumption that people in these areas want "nutritious" food, and that the lack of "nutritious" options has nothing to do with market demand. When a new supermarket opened in the Bronx, thanks to tax incentives, it did not change consumer behavior. There was no increase in vegetable or healthy food consumption. The Introduction of a Supermarket via Tax-Credits in a Low-Income Area: The Influence on Purchasing and Consumption
Food preferences start to be established before birth, early years are the critical period to set lifelong food preferences. Miss those years and it is very hard to change preferences. (And that is without dealing with multi-generational epigenetic effects.)

Like many issues in society it would require multi-generational effort to make significant changes. There are no quick solutions.
 
Food preferences start to be established before birth, early years are the critical period to set lifelong food preferences. Miss those years and it is very hard to change preferences. (And that is without dealing with multi-generational epigenetic effects.)

Like many issues in society it would require multi-generational effort to make significant changes. There are no quick solutions.
There are other issues, energy poverty, can they afford to cook? Do have access to a stove, pans, utensils, a fridge. Microwaves can seem the cheap cooking option they are cheap and cook quickly. Do they know how to make simple nutritious meals? If your power has been cut off, take out food may be your only option, along with bread and biscuits.
 
There are other issues, energy poverty, can they afford to cook? Do have access to a stove, pans, utensils, a fridge. Microwaves can seem the cheap cooking option they are cheap and cook quickly. Do they know how to make simple nutritious meals? If your power has been cut off, take out food may be your only option, along with bread and biscuits.
Yep. That's why I mentioned the idea of food kits earlier. It takes a lot more than only lower prices if you want to help people improve their eating habits.
 
There are other issues, energy poverty, can they afford to cook? Do have access to a stove, pans, utensils, a fridge. Microwaves can seem the cheap cooking option they are cheap and cook quickly. Do they know how to make simple nutritious meals? If your power has been cut off, take out food may be your only option, along with bread and biscuits.
Also time. If you can't afford a car or otherwise can't drive. You're likely to be relying on public transport. The jobs you can take will be more geographically limited, and the commute is likely to be more unreliable and take longer when you include timetables. You are going to have to shop for food more frequently because you can't carry so much home on the bus and anyway, there's a big difference between coming home from a 12 hour shift on public transport when you don't have a proper cooker and coming home from 8 hours in the office to a well stocked kitchen
 
Yep. That's why I mentioned the idea of food kits earlier. It takes a lot more than only lower prices if you want to help people improve their eating habits.
I can imagine the nightmare of delivering food in the poor areas of any big city.
 
In enlightened countries, we call that normal health care.

Communistic as I'm sure you see that, it actually works and poor people are entitled to identical care as rich people.

Horrible, isn't it?
That has nothing at all to do with the assertion I'm responding to, nor to the subtle-yet-accurate point I'm making.

Why do you think this is a worthwhile contribution to the thread? It's off topic, unrelated, and nothing but rudeness.
 
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Food deserts happen because businesses don't see enough paying customers to justify the operating costs of setting up shop in that neighborhood. There's only a few reasons for that. Literally not enough people live there*, a surplus of non-paying customers**, and excessive regulatory burdens*** come to mind.
I think there's another potential reason that you're not considering.

In densely populated urban areas, even where rents are moderate, the cost of real estate needed to build and operate a full scale grocery could be prohibitive.

Small convenience stores and the like might have a bank of refrigerated display units for cold sodas and beer and a pint of ice cream. But they don't have a need for large storage of perishables. They might have a walk-in fridge or freezer in the back for extra chocolate milk or popsicles, if they're a fancy store. When goods are delivered, it's a few boxes or maybe a pallet of something popular delivered by truck.

Grocery stores have many times the number of open-front refrigerated storage for in-aisle goods, as well as many more frozen units. They also have entire refrigerated and frozen rooms where the stock is stored. They have meat lockers, dairy and egg storage, etc. When goods are delivered, it's an entire semi truck of food.

So not only do groceries need much more square footage than a corner store, they also need significantly more robust storage and delivery capabilities, and they need more industrial electricity and cooling systems.

If the property values in a given area are too high and the streets too narrow, there's likely not a good way to make it happen even at break-even pricing. So large grocers end up further away, in an area where they can get the needed floor space and power to function.
 
Those people shouldn't choose to be poor.
Alternatively... maybe we shouldn't pack people in like rats in a way that makes it near impossible for services to be provide in a reasonable distance? Aim for more moderate apartment buildings, with only 3 or 4 floors at the most, spread out enough to place important services within a reasonable distance.

It's like none of you ever played sim city.
 

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