Cont: Global warming discussion V

[Lukraak_Sisser]

And that's the thing isnt it.

It's bad for business now to ensure we will be able to have a better future.
Once the US midwest and central Europe, China become unable to sustain agricultre on the scale they do now due to droughts the economy of the world will collapse, but hey, the ones making mint now will then be dead.

 

[a_unique_person]

Awwwww the denier charge again, that's always so sweet when that one gets trotted out.

So where are we now?

We've firmly established that anti-capitalism (or Communism if you want to be honest) won't produce a society that reduces emissions even if you want to deflect from the reality that that society is the world's largest emitter by repeating the mantra per "capita emissions, per capita emissions ohmmmmm". Sorry, Thunberg.

In post #2333 ITT we're informed that the 10% being asked to cut back their emissions is fascism, so no solution to be found there I'm afraid.

Global CO2 emissions are pretty much flatlined at a rate that makes this 1.5C "limit" unattainable. You know, the doomsday limit. Or so they like to tell us. Negative feedback loops yada yada.

Looks like we're faced with what amounts to an unsolvable problem. Bitching and moaning on the Internet won't solve it, standing around with a sign won't solve it. Like I said in a previous post, the only way to solve it was to not only keep those restrictions imposed during the pandemic but enact an equal amount of subsequent reductions every year for the next 10 years. Oh yay! Everybody in the climate industry actually knows this but can't admit it because it would be bad for business.

That's the standard denier long game playbook. Delay. Deny, divert, obstruct. Oh, it's too late anyway.

 

[Stout]

And that's the thing isnt it.

It's bad for business now to ensure we will be able to have a better future.
Once the US midwest and central Europe, China become unable to sustain agricultre on the scale they do now due to droughts the economy of the world will collapse, but hey, the ones making mint now will then be dead.

Yes, exactly. Bad for business and bad for those trying to live their best lives by patronizing those business.

 

[Stout]

That's the standard denier long game playbook. Delay. Deny, divert, obstruct. Oh, it's too late anyway.

Three years left on the climate clock. Whining about "deniers" appears to be having no effect.

Climate Clock

climateclock.world

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Yes, exactly. Bad for business and bad for those trying to live their best lives by patronizing those business.

I disagree with the second one. A nice example is the energy companies in my country.
When the double covid/Ukraine war hit they all had to raise their prices 'because otherwise they'd go bankrupt' and had the government remove the limit that was in place for how much they could raise prices in one year. After all, energy companies are too big to fail.
When that was going to push a significant part of the population into poverty the same (right wing and pro business by the way) government gave a tax rebate to all citizens to help mitigate the suddenly rising costs.

Then when the fiscal year ended it turned out that, rather than almost going bankrupt, the energy companies had made record profits, which were thus directly paid by the taxes of the whole country.
Did they then lower prices? Return the part of the profit that was given to them by the government? Invest all this extra money into their ageing infrastructure? Nooo, it all went to bonuses and the shareholders.

And now that Iran is happening and the infrastructure is truly failing once again they are increasing prices and holding up their hands to the government.
So no, good for business =/= good for the consumer as businesses care nothing for those. The lack of accountability also prevents any truly long term vision. The ones responsible for not dealing with coming failures will be gone (with a nice bonus to themselves) by the time things fail.

And climate change is the same, the 'burn the world, provided we get money' generation of CEO's exemplified by Trump et al, will be dead by the time things go wrong.

 

[Stout]

All the burn the world CEO's do is provide the population with the means to burn the world. For a recent Dutch example see the advertising bans on carbon intensive products. Those are aimed at changing the population's habits, not the corporation's.

 

[Aridas]

All the burn the world CEO's do is provide the population with the means to burn the world.

And, very often, work to either encourage or ensure that those means will be used as much as they can.

For a recent Dutch example see the advertising bans on carbon intensive products. Those are aimed at changing the population's habits, not the corporation's.

That's... not an example that supports your first sentence.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

All the burn the world CEO's do is provide the population with the means to burn the world. For a recent Dutch example see the advertising bans on carbon intensive products. Those are aimed at changing the population's habits, not the corporation's.

It's both. The immediate effect is that corporations reduce production of products they can't advertise because they know sales will decline. Long term they will look at retiring those products in favor of low carbon equivalents. The population will stop buying those products partly because they are not being advertised, but more because they are less 'popular' and then harder to obtain because most retailers will stop stocking them.

Some people will insist on living in the past though, which is why this is a good policy. Luddites can still get the carbon-intensive products they don't want to give up, so they won't complain much - since it was always about them getting what they want no matter how it affects others.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Then when the fiscal year ended it turned out that, rather than almost going bankrupt, the energy companies had made record profits, which were thus directly paid by the taxes of the whole country.
Did they then lower prices? Return the part of the profit that was given to them by the government? Invest all this extra money into their ageing infrastructure? Nooo, it all went to bonuses and the shareholders

Corporations are required to do this. it's up to governments to ensure that companies don't receive more than is needed, and it's up to voters to ensure that governments do the right thing. But many don't, because it's not just corporations who are only looking out for themselves.

 

[dann]

Still not fast enough, but ...

David Roberts on bsky, July 28, 2026
Europe is jamming the accelerator on electrification.

Electrification Action Plan (European Commission, July 17, 2026)
The Clean Industrial Deal and the Affordable Energy Action Plan introduced a key performance indicator on the share of electricity in final energy consumption, setting 32% by 2030 as reference, and announced the Electrification Action Plan.
It was published on 17 July 2026 and aims at making Europe the first electro-powered continent, with a stronger carbon market to support EU's industry in the clean transition and electrification.
Its indicative electrification target of 46% by 2040 will be assessed as part of the post-2030 Energy Union package. Reaching this goal could cut the EU’s fossil fuel import bill by €260 billion per year by 2040.

A plan to make Europe the first electro-continent (European Commission, July 17, 2026)

EU electrification plan finally tackles barriers to fossil-free heating and cooling (European Environmental Bureau, July 17, 2026)

 

[dann]

Europe’s wildfires are so intense, they’re creating 'fire clouds' (CNN on YouTube, July 28, 2026 – 13:29 min.)
Hundreds of thousands of people in France and Spain have been evacuated from their homes, and wildfires have spread farther than they do on average in an entire year.
Firefighters are battling wildfires close to the cities of Bordeaux and Madrid. France says the fires are far from over and could burn for months, while Spanish authorities say more than 100,000 square miles of land in Madrid have been affected, as exhausted evacuees await a return home.
The wildfires raging in France are so intense they have created “fire clouds,” a never-before-seen phenomenon in the country, authorities say. Temperatures will climb to above-average highs across fire-ravaged areas of France and Spain over the next week, with no signs of rainfall in sight.

0:00 Spain’s PM on fires: “The most painful expression of a climate emergency”
1:25 How the fires are creating their own weather systems
3:51 Wildfire expert on why is the threat so severe
5:39 Why fires are occurring in places where they’ve never happened before
8:22 CNN talks to a firefighter on the scene in Bordeaux
11:23 When can residents expect to go back home

Witnesses describe 'wall of flames' as wildfires rage on in France and Spain (DW News, July 29, 2026 – 17 min.)
Fire crews across Spain and France are battling to contain some of the worst wildfires Europe has ever experienced. Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez says there is a "light at the end of the tunnel" in the fight to contain the flames. But another heatwave is predicted for later this week, threatening to worsen an already desperate situation across the region. We speak to DW Correspondent Rosie Birchard in France, and to firefighter and wildlife management expert Lindon Pronto.
00:00 Crews battle to contain wildfires in France and Spain
03:40 Interview Rosie Birchard, DW Correspondent
09:02 Interview Lindon Pronto, Firefighter

Europe BURNS: How can we get politicians to take climate change SERIOUSLY? (Channel 4 News, July 27, 2026 – 33:29 min.)
As thousands of people are forced to flee their homes amid devastating wildfires in France, Spain and Scotland, the climate emergency seems closer to people’s lives than ever.

Corporations are required to do this. it's up to governments to ensure that companies don't receive more than is needed, and it's up to voters to ensure that governments do the right thing. But many don't, because it's not just corporations who are only looking out for themselves.

From the Channel 4 News video:
3:20–> How come that doesn't create the political alarm and response amongst the voters let alone the politicians that you might expect?
– Well, interestingly, it generally does among the voters. And voters are much more tuned into this than most of our representatives are and indeed than most of the media is. And let's remember, the media is 50% of any problem. When it comes to climate breakdown, I'd say it's 70 to 80% of of the problem.
– Why do you say that, by the way?
– Well, because we're just bombarded with climate denial, climate delay, any effort to basically let the fossil fuel industry off the hook. and and most of the media is owned by billionaires or corporations and billionaires and corporations are almost it without exception the large ones invested in fossil fuels or fossil fuel related activities. They don't want business as usual to change and so they use whatever tactics they can to prevent that change from happening. And so the climate link is is perennially downplayed.
You know, we we hear reports of the fires, we hear reports of the heat waves, and very few of those reports directly and overtly link it to climate breakdown, even though attribution science is very clear on this issue.
But we also see extraordinary things like the times a couple of days ago in the midst of the fires in France and Spain saying netzero threatens our security. What greater threat to security can there be than large areas of the planet becoming uninhabitable?

As for the voters, I'll once again point out this fact that everybody in denial of and thus forgets immediately:

Representative democracy (Wikipedia)
A drawback to this type of government is that elected officials are not required to fulfill promises made before their election and are able to promote their own self-interests once elected, providing an incohesive system of governance.[48] Legislators are also under scrutiny as the system of majority-won legislators voting for issues for the large group of people fosters inequality among the marginalized.[49]
Proponents of direct democracy criticize representative democracy due to its inherent structure. As the fundamental basis of representative democracy is non inclusive system, in which representatives turn into an elite class that works behind closed doors, as well as the criticizing the elector system as being driven by a capitalistic and authoritarian system.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Corporations are required to do this. it's up to governments to ensure that companies don't receive more than is needed, and it's up to voters to ensure that governments do the right thing. But many don't, because it's not just corporations who are only looking out for themselves.

I know, but it's a deep grained US myth that letting corporations do what they want without regulation magically benefits everyone else, even when the opposite is true.

 

[a_unique_person]

I liked Momento, didn't like Batman, couldn't watch more than ten minutes of Tenet, thought Inception was OK, Interstellar was OK, liked Dunkirk.

I didn't watch Oppenheimer because it looked like it changed too many facts to create a fictional story and The Odyssey seems to do the same thing. I'll probably watch it one day but I'm more interested in what these people from the past have to say to us than what Nolan wants to tell me.

 

[wobs]

I liked Momento, didn't like Batman, couldn't watch more than ten minutes of Tenet, thought Inception was OK, Interstellar was OK, liked Dunkirk.

I didn't watch Oppenheimer because it looked like it changed too many facts to create a fictional story and The Odyssey seems to do the same thing. I'll probably watch it one day but I'm more interested in what these people from the past have to say to us than what Nolan wants to tell me.

Wrong thread?

 

[a_unique_person]

Wrong thread?

How could you tell?

 

[dann]

George Monbiot on bsky, July 30, 2026
I'm not qualified to judge whether such people are psychopaths. All I can say is that they behave as if they are.
From today's Telegraph.
Britain can't stop climate change. Scrap net zero and embrace Mediterranean life. (Telegraph, July 29, 2026)
We've lost the war agains global warming so let's learn to handle hotter weather

George Monbiot on bsky, July 30, 2026
And on the same front page:
Forget the Med, Scotland is the perfect holiday destination (Telegraph, July 30, 2026)
Balmy days, island havens and festivals galore make this northern wonderland an ideal option this summer.

George Monbiot on bsky, July 30, 2026
For years, Telegraph columnists told us climate breakdown is a hoax. Now they say: it's real, but it's too late to do anything about it, so let the bodies pile high (again).
Just one long list of excuses not to reduce fossil fuel use.
Such newspapers bear as much responsibility as the oil firms.

It's what the fossil-fuel companies pay them to do!

It's much like right-wing reporting about the pandemic:
1) If it's even real, it's just another flu. It only harms the old and frail.
2) Go out and get infected, and it will all be over next Wednesday!
2) Vax and relax! We now have super immunity!
3) It's endemic. Get used to it!

Besides, heat waves only kill the old, frail and poor who can't afford AC and holidays to the northern wonderland. You'll be fine!

 

[Stout]

Oh ◊◊◊◊!

Germany just signed a two decade deal to buy Canadian Gas.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/ksi-lisims-lng-deal-german-uniper-9.7289879

Wasn't I hearing something about fossil fuels becoming obsolete not to long ago? I could have sworn I heard that. I also heard that Germany has lots and lots of wind and solar and I also heard they have the most expensive electricity in Europe. Which is weird, considering I also heard that wind and solar are the cheapest forms of energy going.

Strange place that Germany. Next someone will be telling me they tore down a wind farm to expand a coal mine.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I know, but it's a deep grained US myth that letting corporations do what they want without regulation magically benefits everyone else, even when the opposite is true.

It's a deeply ingrained myth everywhere that a business exists for any purpose other than making money for its owners. Capitalism is inherently amoral on every other metric. That's not to say the owners can't have other goals than just making money, but that is separate from the corporation itself. And when they do have other goals there's no guarantee that they will align with the needs of society.

That's why businesses need to be 'guided' towards doing the right thing. This can done by governments implementing policies with taxes, incentives, regulations and advice, by consumers preferring some products over others, or by instilling moral values into business owners via education or social mores.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Strange place that Germany. Next someone will be telling me they tore down a wind farm to expand a coal mine.

You're doing it again.

Between 1990 and 2025 Germany reduced its GHG emissions from 1.4 Gt to 0.65 Gt, a drop of 54% despite a 5% population increase. Most of that drop has come from the energy sector (including electricity generation). The decline steepened from 2013 on, soon after 2011 when the government announced plans to shut down all nuclear reactors by 2022.

The main sticking area now is transport, which has stubbornly refused to significantly reduce emissions. The good news is that EVs are finally starting to take over in Germany, beating gas, diesel and hybrids to reach 28.4% of new cars sold in June 2026.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

It's what the fossil-fuel companies pay them to do!

You're wrong to think it's just because 'big oil' pays these journalist to write such articles.
Allister Heath

Allister Georges Freund Heath OBE (born 1977), is a right-wing French-British business journalist... appointed as editor of The Sunday Telegraph in April 2017... From 2000 to 2002, Heath was editor of the European Journal published by the anti-EU European Foundation of which he was also head of research... His first book, A Flat Tax: Towards a British Model... describes Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels as "two of history’s most destructive and flawed thinkers"... In June 2018, he claimed that "cultural Marxism" was "running rampant"... Heath has been a vocal supporter of Israel's war on Gaza

You get the picture. Someone with attitudes like this doesn't need money from big oil to write anti-climate articles. His readers have similar views. The whole world could be burning and they wouldn't care so long as it didn't affect their personal wealth.