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Are all mediums con artists then?

Blutoski

Do yourself a favor and research a bit on this Ian character. This has nothing to do with skepticism, but with his inability to argue and present good arguments. He has been shown wrong so many times that now he is pursuing this "thing" trying to demonstrate (to his own ego this is) that skeptics "are wrong".

Its a parade, nothing else.

I appreciate that, and as an aside, there are some threads in the forum that are clearly the result of a few crap disturbers. The expression "do not feed the trolls" comes to mind.

In addition, there is an irrational urge to respond to some posters who are clearly unhinged. I'm thinking specifically of the "Bipolar and Kundalani" thread, whose originator appears to be, shall we say, touched. Why anybody would engage in dialogue with him is not clear.

However, there is the reality that the vast majority of list or forum members read, but do not participate. There is some value to responding to postings from people like Ian with more than "you're an idiot" statements, because readers have to be given some basis for the accusation. In this case, Ian is describing a popular view among pseudoskeptics of the third type I described above: "Science is dogma, and only those who critique it (99% of the population) demonstrate freedom from indoctrination and therefore real skeptics."

This isn't for Ian's benefit. It's for mine, and for those who could be persuaded by well-crafted sentences that are, in fact, gibberish.

I also see some of what Ian says is true - skepticism attracts what I call "an element". Ian just doesn't discriminate enough, and throws the baby out with the bathwater.
 
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Could you perhaps upload them somewhere?

Err they are about 1.2 Gig per episode, there are 5 episodes, I don't have that kind of space available online or readily available bandwidth to upload that much. If somebody else can host I can burn a DVD.
 
Well, this is just semantics, then. The origins of the term are very obscure, since these philosophers' work is only known through third parties who do not always agree. By 'original definition', do you mean "Academic skepticism" a la Philo? Or more like Cicero's description of the Middle Academy (Arcesilaus' counter-stoicism)?

No I don't. I mean scepticism before Americans hijacked the term.

This earlier model of skepticism claimed that certainty is unachieveable, so we must make a reasonable attempt to form an educated opinion by testing. Sounds like modern skepticism, to me.

This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with modern skepticism. Modern skepticism is a belief system. A belief system moreover which has very little evidence or reason to support it.

Phyrro's skepticism was a little different, and sounds a more like what you're suggesting: nothing is certain, so make no committment. The only thing about this is that Phyrro's skepticism does not appear to have had any actual adherents. Phyrro himself, while admitting that he couldn't be certain whether the next bite of food is really food, would still eat.

You're talking about a radical philosophical scepticism here. It's impossible to live by.

I'm talking about scepticism in the sense of not simply believing something just because other people do so, or because many people say something occurred. If someone claims some phenomenon occurred and this phenomenon contravenes the way our experience tells us that reality behaves, then it is rational to exercise doubt. We don't just simply believe when there are alternative competing hypotheses to explain what happened.

I think such scepticism in its original meaning is absolutely fine. What I think is highly irrational is to take it as an axiom that reality operates by certain principles, and that therefore any reported phenomenon contravening such principles cannot therefore be accepted for what it straightforwardly appears to be.

David Hume was a skeptic in this modern sense. He said:

Hume
A miracle is a violation of the laws of nature; and as a firm and unalterable experience has established these laws, the proof against a miracle, from the very nature of the fact, is as entire as any argument from experience can possibly be imagined.

It appears to me that this exactly expresses the sentiments of most people on here. Now I think David Hume is a truly excellent philosopher, but I'm afraid in this instance his reasoning is truly appalling. I won't go into why here because I'm sure no -one has an interest in my reasoning anyway (they never normally do).


What confuses me, though, is your contention that a skeptic should not endorse western metaphysic, which makes no sense as a critique, since skepticism can be argued to be the backbone of the western metaphysic, having been born and practiced in the Academy.

A skeptic can endorse whatever philosophical position he chooses. But scepticism is all about revising your beliefs should evidence indicate otherwise. In this sense David Hume and most people on here are not skeptics (of course Hume was very much a philosophical skeptic).

I'm involved in organized skepticism in the form of being part of a local branch for over a decade, and CSICOP and skeptical mailing lists since the '80s:

I feel a great deal of hostility towards organised skepticism and its aims.

I have only been a member of this forum for a few weeks, and I share your frustration with the approach of a few members. On other threads, I have espoused the view that assertive atheism has no place in skepticism, for example.

I don't see why not. For skepticism in the modern sense I mean. After all God cannot be seen, cannot be touched. Physical laws govern the entirety of the world. There is just the vast coldness of space overlooking our purposeless lives. That's the sentiment expressed by most skeptics.
 
Err they are about 1.2 Gig per episode, there are 5 episodes, I don't have that kind of space available online or readily available bandwidth to upload that much. If somebody else can host I can burn a DVD.

You can't upload on one of these p2p efforts like bittorrent?
 
Blutoski

Do yourself a favor and research a bit on this Ian character. This has nothing to do with skepticism, but with his inability to argue and present good arguments.

Yes Blutoski, do a bit of research.

He has been shown wrong so many times .

In that case I must be seriously stupid since it seems to me that a good majority of the time people are clueless in what I'm even saying, never mind have proved me to be wrong.

Seriously, no one has ever said anything which remotely touched any of my arguments. Not ever.
 
There's also the point that people very rarely say anything I didn't know or think of myself. A good majority of the time peoples' arguments consist in reiterating stuff I already know and understand. Hence I might as well have a conversation with myself and claim I have proven myself to be wrong :rolleyes:
 
You can't upload on one of these p2p efforts like bittorrent?

I probably could, or I could open up the ftp service on my PC, but it would take you ages to get them over an ADSL line with a 256K upload speed and it would eat a sizeable chunk of my monthly bandwidth quota.

If somebody else is prepared to do all that I'm happy to send them the DVD with the mpegs on.
 
There is some value to responding to postings from people like Ian with more than "you're an idiot" statements, because readers have to be given some basis for the accusation.

Agreed. But there are years of intelligent responses to Ian in the forum, his "arguments" has been proved wrong so many times that now it seems strange when someone takes anything he says seriously.
 
There's also the point that people very rarely say anything I didn't know or think of myself. A good majority of the time peoples' arguments consist in reiterating stuff I already know and understand. Hence I might as well have a conversation with myself and claim I have proven myself to be wrong :rolleyes:

Must be tough being so great all the time Ian.

However, on the ocassion I had cause to discuss something with you, I for one thought many of your arguments were circular, confused and often of no merit at all. So it's just possible that it's not everyone else at fault. I only say possible mind.

Re: mediums - I think a lot of the low level mediums (ie not the TV/radio stars) believe themselves to be genuine. I know such a person. She is on a massage course I am doing. She believes pretty much every alternative/energy/spiritual thing going and believes herself to be a medium. She's a lovely lady and in my opinion is not a liar but merely deluded. It's not such a massive delusion to those whose lives are steeped in such things anyway. I'm sure I have more damaging ones.
 
Ian said:
It doesn't matter what I call people. The rules must be consistently applied. Otherwise I might suspect I am being singled out cos I'm a non-skeptic.
Have you no self-awareness at all? If you have been singled out for anything, it has been letting you get away with calling people all sorts of things without any consequences. Stop playing the poor persecuted woo.

~~ Paul
 
I've just read through this entire thread. (APPLAUSE!)

Ian does not rule out paranormal phenomena, not because he has compelling evidence for its existence, but because he wishes there were.

Wishful thinking is the "new science".

M.
 
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Sorry I may have missed something in my four years of this site,but has Ian ever provided any evidence of a person or persons who have a paranormal abilty?
Sure would speed things up.
 
Sorry I may have missed something in my four years of this site,but has Ian ever provided any evidence of a person or persons who have a paranormal abilty?
Sure would speed things up.
Short version: No.

Long version: No, no, no.
 

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