Zohran Mamdani

[Segnosaur]

But acknowledging that there are unknowns that could cause serious problems to the program should not be considered some sort of evil sin.

Yet celebrating a man that's giving New Yorkers hope for the future and genuinely doing what he feels is best to help the citizens under his purview seems to be? You seem to be at the complete opposite end of the spectrum. You seem almost insulted that people are giving props to a man that's, at least according to the people, making their city better. Why is that?

First of all, this is a skeptics forum. You would think people here would be able to analize the success or failure of a particular policy or program using facts and evidence, instead of just ignoring problems because "he makes people feel good".

Secondly, I am more than willing to give props to a person when it is warranted. In fact, I have even done so in this thread when I talked about his handling of winter storms. What I am not willing to do is look at his child care promise and claim "success" when not one child has actually been placed in any of the child care slots.

 

[Segnosaur]

The City and State do, in fact, already subsidize repairs and capital improvements.

Speaking as someone who is not a new york land lord or tenant..
.
Please tell us exactly what these 'city and state' subsidies for repairs and improvements are.

What is the program name? Who administers them? Are they applied to all rent controlled units or just some? What portion of the repairs are subsidized?

If you are simply talking about how "companies can deduct repair costs from their taxes", then then you fail. Because such deductions will not cover the entire cost of the maintenance.

 

[Segnosaur]

Oh thank God I'm not the only one thinking this because it was killing me reading through the whole rant.

"A rent freeze is terrible!"
"Is it worse than what's happening now?"
"It could be! There are leftist economists that think so!"
"Ok"

First of all, when I pointed out how many left-wing economists agree rent controls are bad, I am doing so to be proactive, in case anyone claims it is coming from "right wing economists only".

Secondly, many of the claims that rent controls cause problems are from analysis of data from areas that have implemented rent controls. So its not just a theoretical "it could be", its a case of "this is what a lot of the evidence shows".

"The Childcare idea doesn't cover every age range and it doesn't cover every hour of the day for everyone!"
"Ok, is it worse than what they have now?"
"...."

As I pointed out before, I never claimed expanded child care was necessarily a bad idea. I am just not so keep into the Mamdami cult to declare it a success before even one kid has been placed into the new child care system.

"His subordinate did something stupid, and he didn't know about it! Is that what you want?"
"The event got caught, canceled, and hasn't happened again. What now?"
"...."

First of all, keep in mind that the incident was not 'caught' by Mamdami or even someone in the administration. It was only caught by someone on the outside.

Secondly, its not just this one issue, its the idea that he might have made a poor staffing decision.

"Mamdani has ideas that will cost money and he hasn't figured out a way to pay for it! He's using outside resources to patch the budget!"
"So he's using resources that are available, he's balanced the budget (at least in the short term), which neither of his predecessors did, but now, for him, this is a huge ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ travesty?"

None of his predecessors were planning on engaging in huge spending projects.

Those project may or may not be a good thing for the city in the long term. I am more than willing to keep an open mind. But if he doesn't have a way to fund those projects (if the state cuts off subsidies, if city council is not cooperative in raising taxes, etc.) then those projects are not going to go anywhere. And if his projects result in huge increases in taxes for middle class home owners, he may be voted out of office before he ever gets to finish any of his grand schemes.

 

[Segnosaur]

Sorry, but those walls of text may be interesting, but I'm too busy chuckling:

Is this officially a cult now?

What exactly did you expect to happen in this thread? Were you expecting only people to say good things Mamdami? To lavish praise on him like Trump cabinet members worshiping their god?

 

[Segnosaur]

Every other country I know of allows landlords to deduct expenses from the income received.

Ummm. you do know that deducting expenses from income does not cover the entire cost of any maintenance that is done.

The corporate tax rate in new york (combined federal and state) is around 27%. (I think it varies slightly depending on income but its a rough number.) Lets round it up to 30% to make the numbers easier.

Lets say you as a landlord want to replace the toilet in an apartment with a gold-plated one for $1000. Yes you can deduct that from your income, and that will give you roughly $300 back. But, you are still on the hook for roughly $700.

A landlord might be inclined to increase rent to cover the cost of the repair. But if you are not allowed to increase rent, you might chose to delay any sort of improvements/maintenance for as long as possible.

I'm surprised there are any landlords in USA.

There are landlords in the USA because in many/most areas they are allowed to increase rent to cover expenses, and give a reasonable profit.

Bring in rent controls, and there will be fewer landlords, as many people won't want to spend money on expenses out of their own pockets. While I am sure there are lots of people who will cheer because "fewer greedy landlords around", it will mean many people who want to find a place to live will have fewer options.

 

[theprestige]

Progressive government in my county implemented a new child care program, "preschool for all". They raised taxes to fund it and everything. A couple years on, it turns out to be a miserable pile of waste, mismanagement, and fraud. It took away more seats from families that had them than it added for families that didn't. It fostered a surge of bait and switch services that didn't meet the program requirements and in many cases lied about their program participation.

"Preschool for few or none, at taxpayer expense" is what the program turned out to be.

The director of the program retired in 2025, after it was discovered that a "provider" she owned was paid $800,000 to serve nine children.

So I remain highly dubious of Mamdani's childcare program. I doubt he or anyone around him is any more competent or motivated to provide quality childcare than my own local progressives.

This is what I'm talking about, when I say Mamdani makes progressives look good. It's actually the opposite: Progressives make Mamdani look bad.

 

[Segnosaur]

I don't think subsidizing maintenance would really be a solution, for a number of reasons.

First of all, I think it would be politically unpopular. The question "Why are you giving money to these greedy landlords" would invariably be raised.

Secondly, lack of maintenance is not the only problem rent controls cause. A reduction in supply and an increase in demand also results (even if the units are maintained adequately.)

◊◊◊◊ them. As Adam Smith himself said rentiers are the lowest of the low. The create nothing but parasite off everybody else.

Lets ignore the fact that the whole "parasite" claim probably isn't justified. (After all, property owners are responsible for maintaining their property, managing tenants expectations, etc. Many of these are things that a homeowner might be doing with their own time and money, so these things do provide value for the tenant)

Even if you think landlords are totally evil, they do provide an important service. Not everyone can afford to own their own property, and even if you could, you might not want the responsibility. If you get rid of them, then what do you do for housing? How do you house the minimum-wage worker who cannot afford a mortgage? If you make it all "government owned/maintained" apartments, you end up with a "one size fits all" that may not work for everyone.

 

[Segnosaur]

Progressive government in my county implemented a new child care program, "preschool for all". They raised taxes to fund it and everything. A couple years on, it turns out to be a miserable pile of waste, mismanagement, and fraud. It took away more seats from families that had them than it added for families that didn't.

Here in Canada, the Province of Quebec had a subsidized daycare program. (I think it was $8/day, a pretty decent deal, even if it wasn't "Free").

The problems were: 1) it didn't cover everyone, and 2) it was only available for those working core hours (9-5 workers).

So you had the rather unfortunate situation where you had relatively wealthy people with their kids in subsidized daycare (because they were lucky enough to get there first), while others with far less income had to find other child care options (because they worked night shifts, or just couldn't find a free slot in their area.) Yet those poorer people were subsidizing the wealthy people's child care through taxes.

I have no problem with a well thought out program that would deal with those particular problems. But until we see more details about Mamdami's plans, people should be a bit more skeptical.

 

[mumblethrax]

None of his predecessors were planning on engaging in huge spending projects.

Yes they were (and did). Both Adams and de Blasio broke records with their budget proposals, and as mentioned earlier, underbudgeting is why we had a budget gap this year (and will probably have another one next year).

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Having to sell your house cheap when you move State directly works to make housing cheaper.
So thank you for your service

 

[theprestige]

Having to sell your house cheap when you move State directly works to make housing cheaper.
So thank you for your service

And this is exactly why some people hate socialists. Because they pretend that gratuitous destruction of wealth through il conceived and vicious policies is the same as people voluntarily donating a significant chunk of their lifetime earnings to the public good.

 

[The Atheist]

Rentiers everywhere love to moan that they're being overtaxed.

Even better in NZ, we don't have a capital gains tax.

Win-win!

Is this officially a cult now?

What exactly did you expect to happen in this thread? Were you expecting only people to say good things Mamdami? To lavish praise on him like Trump cabinet members worshiping their god?

Of course not. Opposing views are great when they're sensible analysis and not walls of text.

I quite often delete CVs of people who put too many words in them.

If someone can't say something succinctly, they shouldn't cry when I don't read it.
 

Ummm. you do know that deducting expenses from income does not cover the entire cost of any maintenance that is done.

Absolutely. I have two degrees in finance and am a former bank manager, so thanks for asking.

Your response does highlight the exact problem with your approach.

Maintenance is a jillionth of the cost of owning a rental. It'd be extremely rare for maintenance to exceed property rates, both of which are dwarfed by interest. But you focus on maintenence...

Well played.

 

[theprestige]

I have two degrees in finance

So you're a finance bro. That tracks with the whole "psychopath" affectation.

and am a former bank manager

So not a finance bro. Just a washed up salaryman.

I think appealing to your credentials isn't the right play for you, here.

 

[The Atheist]

So not a finance bro. Just a washed up salaryman.

Last time I was paid a salary was in the 1980s.

I think appealing to your credentials isn't the right play for you, here.

The post I responded to was utter garbage and I stated a fact. No appeal needed to oppose disinformation.

 

[theprestige]

Last time I was paid a salary was in the 1980s.

Like I said...

The post I responded to was utter garbage and I stated a fact. No appeal needed to oppose disinformation.

Like I said...

 

[Donal]

Speaking as someone who is not a new york land lord or tenant..

You're speaking to someone who has been on both sides of the equation

.
Please tell us exactly what these 'city and state' subsidies for repairs and improvements are.

Or you can, y'know, actually learn what you are talking about before spouting an opinion.

What is the program name? Who administers them? Are they applied to all rent controlled units or just some? What portion of the repairs are subsidized?

Your feelings seem to be inversely proportional to your information

If you are simply talking about how "companies can deduct repair costs from their taxes", then then you fail. Because such deductions will not cover the entire cost of the maintenance.

So, now they need to have free maintenance and repairs? There show be no cost of ownership for rental properties?

 

[plague311]

First of all, when I pointed out how many left-wing economists agree rent controls are bad, I am doing so to be proactive, in case anyone claims it is coming from "right wing economists only".

Secondly, many of the claims that rent controls cause problems are from analysis of data from areas that have implemented rent controls. So its not just a theoretical "it could be", its a case of "this is what a lot of the evidence shows".


As I pointed out before, I never claimed expanded child care was necessarily a bad idea. I am just not so keep into the Mamdami cult to declare it a success before even one kid has been placed into the new child care system.

First of all, keep in mind that the incident was not 'caught' by Mamdami or even someone in the administration. It was only caught by someone on the outside.

Secondly, its not just this one issue, its the idea that he might have made a poor staffing decision.

None of his predecessors were planning on engaging in huge spending projects.

Those project may or may not be a good thing for the city in the long term. I am more than willing to keep an open mind. But if he doesn't have a way to fund those projects (if the state cuts off subsidies, if city council is not cooperative in raising taxes, etc.) then those projects are not going to go anywhere. And if his projects result in huge increases in taxes for middle class home owners, he may be voted out of office before he ever gets to finish any of his grand schemes.

Neat.

One thing to point out, a Mayor's job is to give his people hope. So you making the comment about how that's essentially useless kind of goes to show why you and I don't have much to discuss anymore. You haven't actually proven anything Mamdani is doing is wrong, or bad. You've bitched about evidence and fallen back to "this is a skeptics forum, you guys aren't skeptics, I AM A SKEPTIC!". Yet haven't actually provided any evidence, other than your claim about leftist economists being against a rent freeze, and you couldn't even answer if the effects of the rent freeze would be worse than what is happening now. Then you've made these asinine claims about how if we don't agree with you and your "skeptic" breakdown of Mamdani then we're in a cult.

I'm sure you won't be at all surprised if that isn't as convincing as maybe you think it is.

 

[Segnosaur]

Please tell us exactly what these 'city and state' subsidies for repairs and improvements are.

Or you can, y'know, actually learn what you are talking about before spouting an opinion.

Ummm, your little google search is useless. It points to a mix of programs. Some of which appear to offer loans (which will need to be paid back), others appear to be geared towards homeowners (i.e. not landlords renting out units but those owning the homes they live in.)

Which of those is relevant? If I own an apartment building covered by rent controls and my maintenance expenses go up due to inflation, which of those programs help me? Or am I supposed to go through each one of the programs listed and figure that out?

So, now they need to have free maintenance and repairs? There show be no cost of ownership for rental properties?

Please try to keep up.

It was suggested that rent control leads to units not being maintained properly. You claimed (without evidence or examples!) that the government 'subsidizes' the cost of repairs. When I requested an example of a program that helps a landlord cover repair costs for landlords, you give a list that never addressed the issue at hand.

Nobody is suggesting landlords should be eligible for "free maintenance and repairs". But in a non-rent controlled situation, a landlord can increase rent if maintenance costs increase. In a rent-controlled situation, landlords will be hesitant to absorb the costs if they know rent cannot increase to cover basic inflation.

 

[Donal]

Ummm, your little google search is useless.

So you didn't want a list of low interest and forgivable loas, grants and tax incentives?

It points to a mix of programs.

...yes..?

Some of which appear to offer loans (which will need to be paid back), others appear to be geared towards homeowners (i.e. not landlords renting out units but those owning the homes they live in.)

yes, geared towards people living in their homes, including people who own the multi family units they live in.

Which of those is relevant? If I own an apartment building covered by rent controls and my maintenance expenses go up due to inflation, which of those programs help me? Or am I supposed to go through each one of the programs listed and figure that out?

YES! That's literally your job as a business owner.

Please try to keep up.

I'll have to go backwards to keep pace with you.

It was suggested that rent control leads to units not being maintained properly.

Not proven, but heavily suggested

You claimed (without evidence or examples!) that the government 'subsidizes' the cost of repairs.

what do you think subsidies are?

When I requested an example of a program that helps a landlord cover repair costs for landlords, you give a list that never addressed the issue at hand.

I gave you a list of programs that offered loans, grants, and tax incentives. Again, standard for businesses.

Nobody is suggesting landlords should be eligible for "free maintenance and repairs".

Not intentionally. Your uninformed reactions are leading you there.

But in a non-rent controlled situation, a landlord can increase rent if maintenance costs increase. In a rent-controlled situation, landlords will be hesitant to absorb the costs if they know rent cannot increase to cover basic inflation.

They'll be elss hesitant due to the fines and penalties associated with not maintaining an acceptable living space.

 

[Segnosaur]

Neat.

One thing to point out, a Mayor's job is to give his people hope. So you making the comment about how that's essentially useless kind of goes to show why you and I don't have much to discuss anymore.

Giving people hope? Great idea. Giving people false hope using promises that cannot be fulfilled? That ultimately will cause more harm than good? That's not a good idea. It will turn all that "hope" into cynicism, unhappiness and despare.

You haven't actually proven anything Mamdani is doing is wrong, or bad.

First of all, I have provided evidence that at least some of the stuff Mamdami did was bad. You just choose to stick your fingers in your ears and go "la la la I can't hear you".

Secondly, in many of my posts, I have not specifically said "Mamdami's actions are bad". I said that at this point, it is too early to judge the results. The biggest case of this was his child care program. Hailed as a "success" before even the first child was placed.

You've bitched about evidence and fallen back to "this is a skeptics forum, you guys aren't skeptics, I AM A SKEPTIC!". Yet haven't actually provided any evidence, other than your claim about leftist economists being against a rent freeze, and you couldn't even answer if the effects of the rent freeze would be worse than what is happening now.

The whole "rent control causes problems" is one of these things in economics that is largely seen as a truism by the vast majority of economists. (sort of like "fossil fuels contribute to global warming" or "Trump is incompetent".

But since you want to see just how bad it can be, how about:

From: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1051137724000020
Rent controls appear to be quite effective in terms of slowing the growth of rents paid for dwellings subject to control. However, this policy also leads to a wide range of adverse effects affecting the whole society....
....
By contrast, according to the studies examined here, as a rule, rent control leads to higher rents for uncontrolled dwellings. The imposition of rent ceilings amplifies the shortage of housing..
...
nearly all studies indicate a negative effect of rent control on mobility...This situation can yield unfavorable outcomes for the job market, as reduced residential mobility translates to less adaptable responses to shifts in the labor market.
....
The published studies are almost unanimous with respect to the impact of rent control on the quality of housing...rent control leads to a deterioration in the quality of those dwellings subject to regulations.

So yeah, rent controls give a small number of people low rent (which I have never denied), but it makes it harder for others to find a place to live (which can negatively affect their employment), and even drives up the price even hire for those in non-rent controlled units, even more than it might have otherwise. (So some pay lower rent, others pay even higher rent.)

And even those that manage to get in rent controlled units, the quality goes down over time. "Glad you found a cheap place to live. Enjoy the leaky pipes and mold on the walls."

I don't know, seems like there are a lot more negatives regarding rent control than positives. (As I said, it doesn't even totally control prices for renters.)