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Merged Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University event. / Charlie Kirk Shot And Killed

Emily's Cat: Pointing out that a group of people fit the definition of fascism is bad because it could lead to anger and violence :clutches pearls:!

Also Emily's Cat: All my political opponents are literal communists who want a violent revolution where anyone who doesn't think the way they do are lined up against a wall to be shot!!1

I miss the time when arguing in bad faith wasn't instantly obvious as such, and where it was possible to have a discussion. There was a lot of BS, fear, and jingoism flying around during the debates before the Iraq war, and yes, they got quite heated at times, but it was at least a discussion. Now it's just DARVO, whataboutisms, and strawmen all the way down, without even a pretense of rationality or consistency. It's like trying to argue with a radio tuned to static.

That's how trolling works. This went exactly the way I said it would. It took a dozen posts to get to the fact that Zigg was playing some stupid semantic game and the result of it all was nothing. Just a ridiculous implication at the end that makes no ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ sense and isn't at all relevant to anything.
They've caught on to the fact that they consistently get smoked in rational debate, so now they've shifted to stalling and sabotaging discourse as much as they possibly can.
 
Are you not aware of the CIA's own assessment?
Is that the assessment in which the CIA said it had "low confidence" in its belief that the virus originated in a lab?

And went on to say it “continues to assess that both research-related and natural origin scenarios of the COVID-19 pandemic remain plausible”?

And, according to a later report, "The Central Intelligence Agency and another agency remain unable to determine the precise origin of the Covid-19 pandemic"? While four other intelligence agencies believe the virus had a zoonotic origin? And all intelligence agencies agree the virus was not engineered as a bioweapon?
 
I miss the time when arguing in bad faith wasn't instantly obvious as such, and where it was possible to have a discussion. There was a lot of BS, fear, and jingoism flying around during the debates before the Iraq war, and yes, they got quite heated at times, but it was at least a discussion. Now it's just DARVO, whataboutisms, and strawmen all the way down, without even a pretense of rationality or consistency. It's like trying to argue with a radio tuned to static.

don't forget the plain old lying
 
Now it's just DARVO, whataboutisms, and strawmen all the way down...
The RVO part of DARVO is "Reverse Victim and Offender". Are you trying to suggest that Kirk wasn't the victim here, Robinson was?

Again, miss the time when discussions were discussions, not just bad-faith trolling.
 
Charlie K was certainly the victim in his own murder, nobody else even comes
close. Yessiree. And the best victim you could ask for: skuzzy, slimy,
nazified, and altogether squishy-ripe.

But nothing special. He slithered below most people's radar* until he
finally made interesting news -- well, tittilating news, sordid but satisfying
for a short while. How his sorry tale ends won't matter a good goddamn.

* Mine for sure. But I've grown old in times cluttered with SS wannabes;
they were fifty for a nickel when I was growing up: New Klan, old Silvershirts,
George Lincoln Rockwell, Birchers (I remember the first of those), Bob Taft,
the early militias, and a lot more that now blur together.

ETA: I still wonder about that shattered bullet. Not losing-sleep wonder though.
 
When you label ordinary political difference as "fascism", you encourage and excuse political violence.

But perhaps that's your goal. It certainly seems like it. Tell me: would you be indifferent if I was killed for my political beliefs?
Tyler Robinson labeled Charlie Kirk's 'political difference' as fascism. I wonder why he did that? Perhaps he saw fascism in that difference.

Many people are seeing fascism in Trump right now, and they're not wrong. Charlie Kirk was a strong Trump supporter, so it's not surprising if people 'mistake' that support for being a fascist himself. I mean, being Adolf Hitler’s chief minister of propaganda didn't necessarily make Joseph Goebbels a fascist, right? It was just an 'ordinary political difference'. :xrolleyes

The really sad thing is that Charlie Kirk's political views were changing. I suspect he would be much less of a Trump supporter today, if he was still alive.
 
Tyler Robinson labeled Charlie Kirk's 'political difference' as fascism. I wonder why he did that? Perhaps he saw fascism in that difference.
I'm sure he did. Because that's what people like you keep saying. You are encouraging violence. You are excusing violence. You are blaming the victim of violence.

And you don't see anything wrong with that. You don't even see how that might encourage violence in directions you don't want. How incredibly foolish.
 
I'm sure he did. Because that's what people like you keep saying. You are encouraging violence. You are excusing violence. You are blaming the victim of violence.

And you don't see anything wrong with that. You don't even see how that might encourage violence in directions you don't want. How incredibly foolish.

Because that's the behavior that we're seeing. Plenty of people have shown the correlation between Trump's actions and the actions of previous fascist regimes. Trump would be a dictator if he could be and he's doing everything in his power to make it happen.

Now you want to come here and piss and moan because people are calling a spade, a spade? Tough ◊◊◊◊. Don't exhibit fascist behavior, or in your case gleefully support someone exhibiting fascist behavior, and you won't be called fascists.

You don't get to cry about this. You don't get to play the victim and the left is not advocating violence against the right. No mainstream Democrat has called for violence against the POTUS or any of his people. Your ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ president though, as someone said upthread, does it perpetually and yet we don't hear a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ peep from you, Zigg. Why is that? Why do you expect to be taken seriously when you show such blatant bias? In what world do you think you have a reasonable gripe?
 
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Now you want to come here and piss and moan because people are calling a spade, a spade?
I want to complain that people are excusing and encouraging violence.

Do you really think it can only happen to people on the right? Do you really think that, even from the left, it will only stop at the people that you think are actually fascists?

If you actually paid attention to Kirk (and I don't think you did, but I promise you, a lot of people on the right did), you would know that one of his central points was that dialogue was the alternative to violence. And so that's what he did: he engaged in dialogue with people he disagreed with. What message do you think it sends when someone on the right who tries to engage in dialogue is killed for engaging in dialogue? Do you think the message sent is that we should keep engaging in dialogue?

Do you really want to send the message that Kirk was wrong about that, that it's too late for dialogue?
 
Don't forget semantic games and wilful obtuseness
Speaking of semantic games, calling for a trial is pretty much the opposite of calling for violence.

(And yes, there is ample reason to think that doctors who provide trans-affirming treatments should be made to answer questions about malpractice and ethical violations.)
 
I want to complain that people are excusing and encouraging violence.

Yet you never do when Trump literally does exactly that. So, no, you don't want to complain that people are excusing and encouraging violence. You want to complain when people you don't like say pretty much anything you don't agree with, but for the record, who? Who is excusing and encouraging violence? Feel free to quote it for me, and if there's anything you're good at it's definitely cherry picking individual lines and responding to them. I submit for evidence...pretty much every post you make, ever.
Do you really think it can only happen to people on the right?

Do I really think what can only happen to people on the right?
Do you really think that, even from the left, it will only stop at the people that you think are actually fascists?

I don't do slippery slope arguments. I have no want or desire to entertain your fallacies. Political violence has been a right-wing problem and your ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ party leader is calling for more of it by intimidating people at the polls, among other things.

Your political party is led by someone that danced on the grave of a military veteran, a purple heart recipient, and a man that served his nation with dignity. Your political party celebrated and made memes out of Pelosi's husband getting beat with a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ hammer. Save your self righteous ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ for someone else.
If you actually paid attention to Kirk (and I don't think you did, but I promise you, a lot of people on the right did), you would know that one of his central points was that dialogue was the alternative to violence.

I've watched plenty of Kirk over my time, and that isn't "one of his central points". I think I've read one statement of him discussing debate where he said that when we stop talking that's when violence happens, which is neat. That's a neat quote, but the problem is when he never shuts the ◊◊◊◊ up and all he does is insults PoC, trans, etc. then he isn't really calling for more conversation, is he? When he says he's questioning if a black pilot is qualified, that's not initiating a conversation, is it? That's the difference between you and I. I have the ability to judge a person by their actions, not by some dumb ass throw away line they've said a few times. You act like because Kirk said a few times that dialogue stops violence that his words didn't incite hate against people he doesn't like, which is ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ dumb, even for you.
And so that's what he did: he engaged in dialogue with people he disagreed with.

Lol no he ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ didn't. He berated college students for clicks on the internet. He mocked them and when he finally found someone that would kick his ass in debate he just edited that person out. Once he started losing he would retreat to asinine questions that he would then use to shut the conversation down, "What is a woman?" was one of his favorite fall backs.
What message do you think it sends when someone on the right who tries to engage in dialogue is killed for engaging in dialogue?

Let me know when that happens and I'll comment.
Do you think the message sent is that we should keep engaging in dialogue?

"We had to turn to violence. The left just wouldn't let us perpetually insult, degrade, and demonize them." That's outstanding, very "Why do you make me hit you?"esque.
Do you really want to send the message that Kirk was wrong about that, that it's too late for dialogue?

"Do you really want to argue against this strawman I've constructed? Do you really want to answer this question I've attempted to pigeon hole you into?" Who falls for this ◊◊◊◊, Zigg? Do you think this isn't transparent?

All we do here is dialogue. So how completely and entirely ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ dumb is it to ask me, a person constantly engaging on an internet discussion forum, if it's too late for dialogue? I'm literally engaging with you, one of the most bias Republicans on this forum, without any form of violence.

Don't ask me stupid ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ questions.
 
Do I really think what can only happen to people on the right?
No, I don't.

Nor have I ever blamed leftist victims of political violence for the violence against them. Unlike you.
"We had to turn to violence.
Don't play stupid. This isn't an outcome I *want*. But it's an outcome that's *predictable*. I want to *avoid* it. I want to *avoid* people on the right using violence against people on the left. I assume you do too. And one way to help is to not approve of people on the left using violence against people on the right, but actually condemn it.
The left just wouldn't let us perpetually insult, degrade, and demonize them."
Are you suggesting that violence is an appropriate response to insults?
That's outstanding, very "Why do you make me hit you?"esque.
Who hit whom here? Robinson shot Kirk, Kirk didn't shoot Robinson.
All we do here is dialogue.
That's all anyone on this forum is able to do. But we're talking about stuff that happens off the forum, and off the forum, people can do a lot more than dailogue. Robinson did a lot more than dialogue.

And you're apparently OK with what he did.
 
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No, I don't.

Nor have I ever blamed leftist victims of political violence for the violence against them. Unlike you.

Cool, show me where I did that.
Don't play stupid. This isn't an outcome I *want*. But it's an outcome that's *predictable*. I want to *avoid* it. I want to *avoid* people on the right using violence against people on the left. I assume you do too. And one way to help is to not approve of people on the left using violence against people on the right, but actually condemn it.

Nobody here is approving of political violence. You've made that up.
Are you suggesting that violence is an appropriate response to insults?

No, I'm pointing out your blatant hypocrisy.
Who hit whom here? Robinson shot Kirk, Kirk didn't shoot Robinson.

Tell me, Zigg. Why do YOU think Robinson shot Kirk? What do you think his motivation was? Be specific too, something sourced would be nice, not just that conspiracy ◊◊◊◊ that's on right-wing forums.

Also, I wasn't being literal. It was a comparison. I was comparing you saying "What do we do when dialogue doesn't work?" as if the right, or even ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Kirk himself, has gone through hell and high water to have dialogue with the left, but the left just won't do it. That's a stupid implication. It's asinine. It makes no sense.
That's all anyone on this forum is able to do. But we're talking about stuff that happens off the forum, and off the forum, people can do a lot more than dailogue. Robinson did a lot more than dialogue.

And you're apparently OK with what he did.

Really? Apparently I'm ok with that? Why do you say this stupid ◊◊◊◊, Zigg? Where have I ever condoned what Robinson did? Where have I even hinted at it? Why do you do this? What are you getting from it? Do you think it's not transparent?

No one here is condoning political violence. I certainly haven't, but I have repeatedly shown how you only speak up when it's something the left does but you seem awfully quiet when Trump does it. In fact, this post is about as close to condemning right wing violence as I've seen you come.

No one here wants their political rivals dead just because of their political stance.
 
No one here wants their political rivals dead just because of their political stance.
And yet, who is all your criticism directed at? Kirk, not Robinson. You talk about how hateful Kirk supposedly was, but not about how hateful and violent Robinson was.

You say you don't approve of the Kirk assassination, but I see no evidence that you actually disaprove.
 

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