Merged Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University event. / Charlie Kirk Shot And Killed

[Safe-Keeper]

i don't think the size of the government has anything to do with whether or not maga has similarities with fascism. if you have a good argument against it, why not make an argument with some of your best points instead of starting there?

Whataboutisms, bad-faith 'arguments', and DARVO is all they ever seem to have. Every accusation from them is a confession, every time, for a reason.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Nothing says fascism like trying to shrink government.

Well, yeah: fascist governments get rid of those who don't follow their party line. The nature of the removal may vary between being fired and being firing squadded, depending on how strongly the fascists control things at the time.

The overall size of the government--the number of people working in it as employees-- isn't an indicator of fascism or not, it's whether those employees are loyal to the leadership regardless of whether that leadership is acting legally or not.

 

[dirtywick]

Definitions of fascism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

here's a wikipedia page with 47 different definitions of fascism. i'll confess i didn't read them all thoroughly, however i can't find a single reference to the size of the government. i can, however, find a bunch of concepts that appear over and over again in these definitions, like nationalism, militarism, a populist central authoritarian anti-intellectualism, us vs them victimhood, far right extremism, and anti-democracy, which to me is where you'll find whether or not maga is a fascist movement or not.

 

[jimbob]

When you label ordinary political difference as "fascism", you encourage and excuse political violence.

Is it different when you insinuate people are communists? Or mischaracterise people as communists. Especially if you conflate "leftists" and "communists" and call others "leftists.

And remember that Kirk DID advocate violence. Although he spent more time spreading fear about groups he disliked, which contributed to the violent narrative.

 

[Ziggurat]

Is it different when you insinuate people are communists?

Yes, actually it is. Communism is much more tolerated here. One can argue that it shouldn't be, given its even bloodier history, but it absolutely is. We never waged a world war against communism.

 

[ahhell]

Definitions of fascism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

here's a wikipedia page with 47 different definitions of fascism. i'll confess i didn't read them all thoroughly, however i can't find a single reference to the size of the government. i can, however, find a bunch of concepts that appear over and over again in these definitions, like nationalism, militarism, a populist central authoritarian anti-intellectualism, us vs them victimhood, far right extremism, and anti-democracy, which to me is where you'll find whether or not maga is a fascist movement or not.

To be fair, its hard to do any about any of that will a small government apparatus with limited authority.

 

[Ziggurat]

here's a wikipedia page with 47 different definitions of fascism. i'll confess i didn't read them all thoroughly, however i can't find a single reference to the size of the government.

Shows how useless Wikipedia can be.

Fascists never shrink government. Nobody actually interested in using the state to oppress people ever does. The reasons should be obvious.

 

[jimbob]

I like Umberto Eco's 14 characteristics of fascism

1"The cult of tradition,"
2"The rejection of modernism,"
3"The cult of action for action's sake,"
4"Disagreement is treason"
5"Fear of difference,"
6"Appeal to a frustrated middle class,"
7"Obsession with a plot"
8 "at the same time too strong and too weak."
9"Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" because "life is permanent warfare"
10 "Contempt for the weak,"
11"Everybody is educated to become a hero,"
12"Machismo,"
13"Selective populism"
14"Newspeak"

Trump maybe doesn't fulfil 9 and 11.

But he is happy with avowed neo Nazis and Klansmen supporting him in, say Charlottesville.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Trump is massively expanding the government - you do know that, right?

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Shows how useless Wikipedia can be.

Fascists never shrink government. Nobody actually interested in using the state to oppress people ever does. The reasons should be obvious.

That's ok, neither is MAGA. It is just removing all forms of government oversight and protections for citizens so Trump, his family and backers can loot the treasury, while at the same time introducing a police state that governs every aspect of your life.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It makes sense to me. It's violence perpetrated based on ideology (as opposed to other motives). I don't understand what's confusing about it.

Ideology as motivation, got it.

I was recently involved in a discussion with someone who claimed “linguistic violence” and “belief violence”. They literally meant that saying certain things was actual violence in and of itself, as was holding certain beliefs - regardless of whether anyone took any physical action or not.

It didn’t slow them down from calling people names though, so

 

[PitPat]

Ideology as motivation, got it.

I was recently involved in a discussion with someone who claimed “linguistic violence” and “belief violence”. They literally meant that saying certain things was actual violence in and of itself, as was holding certain beliefs - regardless of whether anyone took any physical action or not.

It didn’t slow them down from calling people names though, so

Well, yes. For example,

Blacks are subhuman (ideology) + let's beat them up (violence) = ideological violence.

I don't think it's a controversial term and not seeing how your other unusual examples affect it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Error

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well, yes. For example,

Blacks are subhuman (ideology) + let's beat them up (violence) = ideological violence.

I don't think it's a controversial term and not seeing how your other unusual examples affect it.

That’s why I asked in the first place. You are talking about ideologically-motivated violence. But I know people who think the ideology itself is a form of violence in and of itself.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What @PitPat said

Advocating the murder of medics who had helped trans people wasn't exactly advocating political violence, nor was it religious violence.

Who did this?

 

[Emily's Cat]

…Kirk's beliefs that a christian theocracy needs to be installed that excludes women, people of color, anyone not straight and not of the right political background? And that those in opposition to this idea are fair game to violence?

Do you have support for the assertion you’ve made here? Do you have quotes, with full context, that demonstrate Kirk espousing those views?

 

[jimbob]

Yes, actually it is. Communism is much more tolerated here. One can argue that it shouldn't be, given its even bloodier history, but it absolutely is. We never waged a world war against communism.

What's that got to do with anything. YOU certainly don't approve of communism and you were insinuating that a poster was a communist for supporting the idea of a welfare safety net. You might claim that wasn't what you meant, but in that case, you need to improve your communication.

Charlie Kirk advocated ideological violence against doctors. He used racist tropes with the flimsiest of figleaves. He was a hypocrite who supported the right to violent speech for those he supported and the repression of free speech for those he opposed (again with the flimsiest of figleaves to say that they weren't the same). He pushed conspiracy theories that have lead to violence. He didn't like the idea of empathy.
He spread homophobic ideas (as in they "want to corrupt your children"). He pushed for violence against "pervert" transgender people (again it's an implausible figleaf of deniability to say that they should be "taken care of the way we used to take care of things in the 1950s and '60s" is not a call for violence).

Yes he was very careful to avoid explicit calls for violence but he was constantly making implicit insinuations where the obvious conclusion was for violence.

And as he liked jokes about far more innocent victims of violence, it's a bit rich and hypocritical to claim offence at his becoming a meme. Especially given how Erika Kirk has tried to milk the situation.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Whataboutisms, bad-faith 'arguments', and DARVO is all they ever seem to have. Every accusation from them is a confession, every time, for a reason.

“When they say the oppose violence, that’s just what a violent person would say”

 

[Emily's Cat]

And remember that Kirk DID advocate violence.

Do you have quotes, with full context, that support this assertion?

 

[jimbob]

Who did this?

Charlie Kirk

ETA: "We need to have a Nuremberg-style trial for every gender-affirming clinic doctor"

Charlie Kirk: "We need to have a Nuremberg-style trial for every gender-affirming clinic doctor"

www.mediamatters.org

And as I said before, enough conspiracy theorists in the muddy waters where Kirk swam used the term "Nuremberg trials" with pictures of the hangings or gibbets to know that it was more than "just" false imprisonment he was advocating.