Apollo 11 Moon Landing Revisited: Hoax ~vs~ Debunk

[PSXer]

I'm extremely disappointed in today's episode of Jeopardy. They had a category about people getting punched in the face, but none of the clues were about Sibrel.

 

[Vixen]

Nonsense. As with every other conspiracy theory you trot out, you're firmly in the conspiracy camp—or whichever camp gets the grown-ups to pay attention to you. You don't have the relevant skills, temperament, or honesty to sit in credible judgment over whether people accomplished a technical feat.


No one said they were idiots. The claim was that any who believed them would have to be.

That said, you don't know any of these people. You had no idea who they were just a few scant months ago. Have you spoken with any of them? Corresponded with them? Directly asked them questions about their claims? Seen how they act "behind the scenes," as it were? No, you haven't. You're in no position to tell anyone who these people are or whether they should be believed. They tell you stories that help you drive your attention addiction, and that's why you're starry-eyed about them.


Then it's a good thing that's not what the debunking consists of.

The debunking consists of first explaining the actual science in contrast to the simplistic, made-up nonsense the hoax claimants tell you should be the case; then in actually demonstrating it live on camera for an audience. No stars in photos? I can easily explain why. Then I can take an identical camera and film and show you that I'm right. No name-calling, no sentimentality—just facts.

You couldn't be bothered to watch the video where I did that. Yet somehow you think you get to be the scorekeeper.

A conspiracy theorist is someone who believes bonkers theories about say, Covid being a hoax, vaccinations causing autism or certain death by such and such a date; there is a plot to replace populations and a creeping in of two-tier policing (they tend to have neo-nazi tendencies as they are a bit dim). This clever way of describing people who are aware that MV Estonia and Apollo 11 are almost certainly 'classified' just gives abusive people an excuse to well, abuse with impunity. Apollo 11 is likely classified until 2076, when everyone with living memory of it is dead and buried in their graves. That's probably the real reason the Michigan capsule, as found by the Soviets is 'sealed until 2076'. Come 2076, the early press interviews with the three astronauts will be wheeled out to show, 'Well they never actually said they were on the Moon (or saw stars). They just gave an affirmation (Aldrin) of 'commitment' to space travel."

As you know, Aldrin had a nervous breakdown and became an alcoholic. In his tv interviews he comes across as a buffoon, telling one little girl, 'We never went there'. Armstrong became more or less a recluse - rather like J. D. Salinger - with hordes of fans and journalists trying to find him. In his few 'chummy' tv interviews, he appears well-scripted and relaxed in the type of faux-ambience we associate with chat shows, with starry-eyed gushing interviewers virtually hero-worshipping at his feet like something out of Wayne's World ("We are not worthy!"). Yet his second wife, Carol, found his Moon stuff tucked away in the back of a wardrobe which he was supposed to have left on the Moon. Plus the three arriving by helicopter into 'quarantine' come bounding down the steps with nary any muscle weakness, or needing help to walk or aides nearby. (Unlike those returning from ISS,only 250 miles up).

But you know all this.

 

[Vixen]

...and therefore that Marcus Allen doesn't know what he's talking about. He copied the claim from Bill Kaysing, who knew practically nothing about photography.

The point @Vixen made that you are responding to is David Percy's fallback. His book and video claim the astronauts never went to the Moon. The corrections from professionals over his factual and scientific incompetence was so withering that he tried to walk it back on sentimental grounds. He thought that if he conceded that at least some astronauts went to the Moon and relaxed his argument to say only the photography was faked, he could avoid having his head repeatedly handed to him over his evidentiary claims. It didn't work.

Percy does not believe in the "no stars" claim. Or rather, he advocates a different version. Percy claims to be a professional photographer. And to some degree he can demonstrate knowledge consistent with that claim. As such he knows about exposure and knows not to repeat the Kaysing/Allen nonsense.

As I wrote before, Percy does a sort of tap dance where he cites a mechanical engineer from Hasselblad saying that the Apollo film had two stops of exposure latitude. Percy then says that at least some of the brightest stars might show up faintly. Except that the mechanical engineer is wrong. He's an expert on the mechanical aspects of cameras, not the behavior of film. Ektachrome E-3 at ISO 160 has an infamously narrow exposure latitude of about half a stop. Since thousands of photographers the world over were using this very popular film stock, it's not something Percy (or NASA) could easily lie about.

And in fact Percy doesn't lie about it. In the section of his book where he claims the cameras would have been too difficult to operate and that the pictures are suspiciously good, he correctly reports the film exposure latitude as half a stop. He knows he has no reason to believe Hasselblad's engineer, but this is David Percy's m.o. He just says whatever he wants to be true to make whatever point is at hand and makes sure his books and video are too tedious and lengthy for you to notice the contradictions.

What do you have to say about the almost certain 'fogging' of the 60's-camera film due to the effects of radiation?

 

[JayUtah]

A conspiracy theorist is someone who believes bonkers theories...

...full stop.

Apollo 11 is likely classified until 2076...

Asked and answered. Almost nothing about Apollo was ever classified, and none of it is today.

As you know, Aldrin had a nervous breakdown and became an alcoholic.

Correct. He has commented extensively about it.

Yet his second wife, Carol, found his Moon stuff tuck away in the back of a wardrobe which he was supposed to have left on the Moon.

Asked and answered.

But you know all this.

I do, and you know all of this has already been discussed and debunked many times in this thread. Yet you continue to believe in bonkers theories about it, and you keep flogging it to sustain your apparent attention addiction.

 

[Steve]

A conspiracy theorist is someone who believes bonkers theories about say, Covid being a hoax, vaccinations causing autism or certain death by such and such a date there is a plot to replace populations and a creeping in of two-tier policing (they tend to have neo-nazi tendencies as they are a bit dim). This clever way of describing people who are aware that MV Estonia and Apollo 11 are almost certainly 'classified' just gives abusive people an excuse to well, abuse with impunity. Apollo 11 is likely classified until 2076, when everyone with living memory of it is dead and buried in their graves. That's probably the real reason the Michigan capsule, as found by the Soviets is 'sealed until 2076'. Come 2076, the early press interviews with the three astronauts will be wheeled out to show, 'Well they never actually said they were on the Moon (or saw stars). They just gave an affirmation (Aldrin) of 'commitment' to space travel."

As you know, Aldrin had a nervous breakdown and became an alcoholic. In his tv interviews he comes across as a buffoon, telling one little girl, 'We never went there'. Armstrong became more or less a recluse - rather like J. D. Salinger - with hordes of fans and journalists trying to find him. In his few 'chummy' tv interviews, he appears well scripted and relaxed in the type of faux-ambience we associate with chat shows, with starry-eyed gushing interviewers virtually hero-worshipping at his feet like something out of Wayne's World ("We are not worthy!"). Yet his second wife, Carol, found his Moon stuff tuck away in the back of a wardrobe which he was supposed to have left on the Moon. Plus the three arriving by helicopter into 'quarantine' come bounding down the steps with nary any muscle weakness, or needing help to walk or aides nearby. (Unlike those returning from ISS,only 250 miles up).

But you know all this.

"someone who believes bonkers theories" indeed. It is exactly what keeps this thread chugging along.

 

[JayUtah]

What do you have to say about the almost certain 'fogging' of the 60's-camera film due to the effects of radiation?

Asked and answered.

Marcus Allen claims that stars should be incidentally visible in the Apollo 11 photos. You know it takes tens of seconds to expose stars on ISO 160 film. Was Allen's expectation reasonable according to the facts? How long are going to pretend you don't know the answer to that question?

 

[Vixen]

OK, but if a 30 story building blasted off with over 3,000,000 kgf (sorry) of thrust, surely someone would have noticed, right?

Doesn't prove it travelled 265,000 miles.

 

[Vixen]

And since it was in space it just turned and floated on its superstruture.

I am glad you realise the poor physics behind that thinking.

 

[JayUtah]

Doesn't prove it travelled 265,000 miles.

It was tracked by multiple independent parties.

 

[Andy_Ross]

A conspiracy theorist is someone who believes bonkers theories about say, Covid being a hoax, vaccinations causing autism or certain death by such and such a date there is a plot to replace populations and a creeping in of two-tier policing (they tend to have neo-nazi tendencies as they are a bit dim). This clever way of describing people who are aware that MV Estonia and Apollo 11 are almost certainly 'classified' just gives abusive people an excuse to well, abuse with impunity. Apollo 11 is likely classified until 2076, when everyone with living memory of it is dead and buried in their graves. That's probably the real reason the Michigan capsule, as found by the Soviets is 'sealed until 2076'. Come 2076, the early press interviews with the three astronauts will be wheeled out to show, 'Well they never actually said they were on the Moon (or saw stars). They just gave an affirmation (Aldrin) of 'commitment' to space travel."

As you know, Aldrin had a nervous breakdown and became an alcoholic. In his tv interviews he comes across as a buffoon, telling one little girl, 'We never went there'. Armstrong became more or less a recluse - rather like J. D. Salinger - with hordes of fans and journalists trying to find him. In his few 'chummy' tv interviews, he appears well-scripted and relaxed in the type of faux-ambience we associate with chat shows, with starry-eyed gushing interviewers virtually hero-worshipping at his feet like something out of Wayne's World ("We are not worthy!"). Yet his second wife, Carol, found his Moon stuff tuck away in the back of a wardrobe which he was supposed to have left on the Moon. Plus the three arriving by helicopter into 'quarantine' come bounding down the steps with nary any muscle weakness, or needing help to walk or aides nearby. (Unlike those returning from ISS,only 250 miles up).

But you know all this.

Repeating the same ◊◊◊◊ that was answered a short time ago.

Do you think we have forgotten already or that the thread isn't there to look back at?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Doesn't prove it travelled 265,000 miles.

Apart from it was tracked all the way there and back.
Anyone could point a suitable directional antenna at the moon and hear the transmissions from the surface and orbit.

 

[Vixen]

At sea level. Where I live, that attenuation factor drops to about 20%. Where I hike, the factor is only 10-15%. The sun is very bright. We wear AO Aviators and apply lots of sunblock. Solar radiation in and around the visible spectrum is the same in low Earth orbit as it is on the lunar surface. We've been sending pilots up into that environment since the late 1950s.

Way too many hoax claimants think that all the problems associated with space travel and lunar EVAs just sprang up unexpectedly and unknowably for Apollo 11, and therefore that solving them required some unprecedented effort.


Nor was their ultimate progenitor, the Type P4 helmet introduced in the mid 1950s. It featured a smoked full-face visor to reduce glare. The same treatment was used for the space suit designed for the X-15, although that helmet used a fixed full faceplate.

What's different on the lunar surface is infrared re-radiation. We know the spectrum of light striking the lunar surface. But as the surface heats, it radiates significantly in the infrared spectrum. This makes your face feel hot. The smoked Plexiglas doesn't attenuate enough of that. The gold coating on the LEVA does. The attenuation factor can be measured on Earth in the lab. We don't need to wait for flight test to know that it works. The notable IR reflective properties of gold were well known to scientists.

That's not to say there weren't problems. The visor substrate is Lexan polycarbonate. While Lexan is highly impact resistant, it's soft and scratches easily. Apollo 17 scientist-astronaut Harrison Schmitt accumulated enough scratches to his visor that he found it difficult to see through. He was constantly raising it to get a better look at what he was doing, prompting Mission Control to order him to keep it down.

Low Earth Orbit (LEO) is well within the Van Allen Belt. As you know but keep trying to equate it with almost 250,000 more miles away.

 

[JayUtah]

Low Earth Orbit (LEO) is well within the Van Allen Belt. As you know but keep trying to equate it with almost 250,000 more miles away.

Gibberish.

 

[Vixen]

Apart from it was tracked all the way there and back.
Anyone could point a suitable directional antenna at the moon and hear the transmissions from the surface and orbit.

Citation. Jodrell said they heard the communications just before descent. Anyone can say they heard all of the transmissions and could prove they came from 250K miles away. Anyone can say anything. We know that as of the point they came out of the VA Belt, Houston didn't even bother asking if they were okay. Probably because there was no need for any concern.

 

[JayUtah]

Citation.

Asked and answered.

 

[JayUtah]

We know that as of the point they came out of the VA Belt, Houston didn't even bother asking if they were okay. Probably because there was no need for any concern.

Correct, there was no need for concern. NASA knows more about the hazards of space radiation than Marcus Allen and knows when there is danger and when there isn't.

 

[Vixen]

Ah yes, the "lack of stars". Remember when you admitted that it's impossible to photograph stars with ISO 160, f-5.6 and 1/125 sec. exposure time? I bet you wish you hadn't done that, because it must be awkward pretending you never acknowledged that fact.

And then there's the secondary lighting that magically doesn't cast a secondary shadow.

Your hoax proponents are no more qualified to evaluate the photographic evidence than you are, and you posted this thinking it was a real photograph taken from the moon:
View attachment 73157


Except for the fact that if you can determine where the stars should be located, as an astronomer could, then you can determine where to place said stars in the images, as an astronomer could. And they wouldn't even need to worry about the positions of the stars relative to each other, because they'd be actual photographs of the stars, as I previously pointed out. Maybe the reason you keep painting yourself into corners with your own ignorance is because you actively avoid learning anything new from others, because you feel a resentment toward someone who knows something you don't?

But then this is all moot, because you can't photograph stars with a film camera set to take photos in bright sunlight. I know Jay is rethinking whether the "no stars" hoax argument is the stupidest element of the whole conspiracy theory, but it's got to be in the top three stupidest elements.


Or you could just let them answer honestly, because when your eyes are adapted to bright light, you can't see stars


There's nothing logical about it, because yours is a conclusion based on ignorant assumptions, not physical realities.


Vixen, we've debunked the living ◊◊◊◊ out of this. You just stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and shout "NAANAANAANAANAA!!!" to avoid learning anything new that contradicts what you already believe about your investigative genius.

Still pretending that anyone gives a flying ◊◊◊◊ what Richard Nixon thought about the Apollo Program, eh? You're just going to cling to that straw man like one of Harry Harlow's baby monkeys clinging to the cloth mother.


Are you really going to pretend that a human eye that's been exposed to bright light will be able to see stars? Surely you've been alive long enough to realize the absurdity of this self-delusion. You're just proving that you'd rather invent an imaginary reality for yourself than admit that yet another conspiracy theory you've hitched your ego to is made of nothing more substantial than sunshine and farts.

They were well aware of the technical limitations of the cameras when it came to photographing stars, and what would be necessary to do so. But they weren't there to photograph stars. And if they had done, they would have been photos of just the stars - no Aldrin on the lunar surface with stars in the sky behind him - because if you set the cameras up to take star photos, they'll massively over expose anything illuminated by the sun, like this:
View attachment 73166 View attachment 73168

So, again, why would they waste time from their very busy EVA schedules to set up specially configured cameras on tripods to take long exposure photos that would show nothing they couldn't see from earth?

And what technical issues were they going to address to make it possible to see stars with the naked eye while adapted to bright lighting conditions? Maybe a bionic eye, or some extremely advanced genetic engineering?

This was the 1960's, remember? There was no photoshop or easy way of manipulating photos, with negatives. Digital didn't really arrive until the nineties.

 

[Mojo]

A conspiracy theorist is someone who believes bonkers theories about say, Covid being a hoax, vaccinations causing autism or certain death by such and such a date; there is a plot to replace populations and a creeping in of two-tier policing (they tend to have neo-nazi tendencies as they are a bit dim). This clever way of describing people who are aware that MV Estonia and Apollo 11 are almost certainly 'classified' just gives abusive people an excuse to well, abuse with impunity. Apollo 11 is likely classified until 2076, when everyone with living memory of it is dead and buried in their graves. That's probably the real reason the Michigan capsule, as found by the Soviets is 'sealed until 2076'. Come 2076, the early press interviews with the three astronauts will be wheeled out to show, 'Well they never actually said they were on the Moon (or saw stars). They just gave an affirmation (Aldrin) of 'commitment' to space travel."

As you know, Aldrin had a nervous breakdown and became an alcoholic. In his tv interviews he comes across as a buffoon, telling one little girl, 'We never went there'. Armstrong became more or less a recluse - rather like J. D. Salinger - with hordes of fans and journalists trying to find him. In his few 'chummy' tv interviews, he appears well-scripted and relaxed in the type of faux-ambience we associate with chat shows, with starry-eyed gushing interviewers virtually hero-worshipping at his feet like something out of Wayne's World ("We are not worthy!"). Yet his second wife, Carol, found his Moon stuff tucked away in the back of a wardrobe which he was supposed to have left on the Moon. Plus the three arriving by helicopter into 'quarantine' come bounding down the steps with nary any muscle weakness, or needing help to walk or aides nearby. (Unlike those returning from ISS,only 250 miles up).

But you know all this.

Post in thread 'Apollo 11 Moon Landing Revisited: Hoax ~vs~ Debunk'

Jul 7, 2026

There is more understanding in one whistled comment of one Klanger than there is in all of Vixen's posts in this thread.

Do you mean, as in "sod it, the bloody thing's stuck again"?

‘They were a bit abrasive’: how kids’ TV Clangers secretly swore

The son of Oliver Postgate, creator of the 1970s show, reveals what was in the scripts for the delightful and puzzling swannee-whistle creatures

www.theguardian.com

• Mojo

• 
• 

 

[JayUtah]

This was the 1960's, remember? There was no photoshop or easy way of manipulating photos, with negatives. Digital didn't really arrive until the nineties.

People have been altering and retouching photos since the advent of photography. Allen, Percy, and other claims the Apollo photos were composited and retouched to add such details as the photogrammetry crosshairs.

@Foster Zygote asked you the same question I did about Marcus Allen's claim. Allen says stars should incidentally be visible in the Apollo 11 photos. But you know it takes tens of seconds to expose stars on ISO 160 film. Is Marcus Allen's expectation reasonable according to the facts? Do you intend to keep pretending you don't know the correct answer to that question?

 

[Vixen]

Are you conceding that the Van Allen belts etc. were not the problems you claim they are?


Yes, most straw men need no debate.

Shielding the human eye against bright light, including ultraviolet light, is not rocket science. Sunlight is exactly the same on the lunar surface as it is in Earth orbit. Therefore it's possible to develop and test solutions before actually going to the Moon. People have been flying above Earth's atmosphere since the late 1950s. Yes, by 1969 it's possible to study the problem and provide completely effective solution. The notion that the lunar surface is a terrifying unknowable environment is just projection from ignorant people.

Houston were 100% unconcerned about the potential hazards of radiation.