• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Apollo 11 Moon Landing Revisited: Hoax ~vs~ Debunk

...please can you desist from lobbing insults.
You could avoid being mocked by taking the topic seriously instead of posting AI slop in response to serious questions.

Marcus Allen says there should be stars in the Apollo 11 photographs. But you know it takes tens of seconds to expose stars on ISO 160 film. Was Allen's expectation reasonable according to the facts?
 
Adequately according to whom?


You know the camera settings used to take those photographs. You know how long it takes to expose stars using that film. You admitted that if you used a shutter speed of tens of seconds to try to take photographs of sunlit objects, the photos would be uselessly overexposed.

Was Marcus Allen being reasonable when he expected to see stars in those photos?
This is the circular argument isn't it? 'There are no stars in the photos because the photos and the camera show it was not possible', when Kaysing set a bigger question: that NASA had a deliberate policy of avoiding critical mention of the stars, as in the press conference wherein we saw the three astronauts were extremely guarded about the issue, with Armstrong saying, 'I don't recall' and then having a scripted response to Moore's question, which he had obviously been given in advance, since he repeated Moore's precise terms verbatim. Armstrong refers to a specific and particular circumstance when it is not reasonable to see the stars, not Kaysing's broader point, which, paradoxically answers itself insofar the astronauts will NOT be drawn on this, so <ahem> rather answers Kaysing's own question!
 
Last edited:
This is the circular argument isn't it?
No, it's a straightforward question. We're talking about Marcus Allen, not the press conference.

Marcus Allen says that stars should be visible in the Apollo 11 photographs. But you know that it takes tens of seconds to expose stars on ISO 160 film. Was Allen's expectation reasonable according to the facts?
 
This is the circular argument isn't it? 'There are no stars in the photos because the photos and the camera show it was not possible', when Kaysing set a bigger question: that NASA had a deliberate policy of avoiding critical mention of the stars, as in the press conference wherein we saw the three astronauts were extremely guarded about the issue, with Armstron saying, 'I don't recall' and then having a scripted response to Moore's question, which he had obviously been given in advance, since he repeated Moore's precise terms verbatim. Armstrong refers to a specific and particular circumstance when it is not reasonable to see the stars, not Kaysing's broader point, which, paradoxically answers itself insofar the astronauts will NOT be drawn on this, so <ahem> rather answers Kaysing's own question!


:crazy:
 
No, it's a straightforward question. We're talking about Marcus Allen, not the press conference.

Marcus Allen says that stars should be visible in the Apollo 11 photographs. But you know that it takes tens of seconds to expose stars on ISO 160 film. Was Allen's expectation reasonable according to the facts?
Allen's point is rather, that stars do not show in the photos because he believes they were not taken on the Moon, for several reasons.
 
Allen's point is rather than stars do not show in the photos because he believes they were not taken on the Moon, for several reasons.
Since you would not, as you have admitted, expect to see stars in the photos taken on the Moon, with the known available settings, that argument collapses, wouldn't you say?
 
Allen's point is rather, that stars do not show in the photos because he believes they were not taken on the Moon, for several reasons.
He says that if they really had been taken on the Moon, there should be stars in the sky in the photos. But you know that it takes tens of seconds to expose stars on that film. Was Allen's expectation of seeing stars in the photos reasonable according to the facts?
 
Last edited:
He says that if they really had been taken on the Moon, there should be stars in the sky in the photos. But you know that it takes tens of seconds to expose stars on that film. Was Allen's expectation of seeing stars reasonable according to the facts?
T'other day you said it would take a shutter speed of 1,000's of seconds. Since they knew in advance their ETA on the Moon one would hope that the NASA experts would have had the right equipment prepared. Not one that obscures the photos' provenance.
 
T'other day you said it would take a shutter speed of 1,000's of seconds. Since they knew in advance their ETA on the Moon one would hope that the NASA experts would have had the right equipment prepared. Not one that obscures the photos' provenance.
(They didn't go there to take pictures of the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ stars)
 
This is where the avoidance of the question comes in in the OP video. Kaysing states the astronauts refuse to speak about the stars (to paraphrase hisbelief) yet instead of debunking the claim NASA made a 'conscious decision' to leave the stars out, according to Kaysing, Tony Cook simply launches off into a non sequitur - as does Patrick Moore - of what the human eye can and cannot see instead of answering the 'hoaxer' question.
I would have thought a "triple niner" could have composed a more cogent sentence.

Kaysing's belief is not based on facts. You've already conceded that the cameras used would require exposure times thousands of times longer than those used in order to image stars. So why are you still citing Kaysing's ignorance based beliefs as facts? Kaysing assumed, out of ignorance, that because the sky was black he should see stars in it. He didn't know what he was talking about. His hypothesis that NASA didn't know how to fake the stars convincingly so they just left the sky black is utterly stupid. Not only was he ignorant of the requirements for photographing stars, but he was ignorant of the compositing techniques that could have added them. And they would have been convincing because they would have been images of real stars. But if NASA had done that, professional photographers all over the world would have been asking what the hell was up because, unlike you and Bill Kaysing, they know the limits of photographic equipment.

And the limits of human vision aren't a non sequitur just because they don't conveniently support your ignorance based argument. The Apollo crews were almost always exposed to bright light sources. If you're outdoors at night under bright artificial lightning, like at a sports event, you aren't going to see stars any better than the Apollo crews could. Even if you suddenly turn off all the lights, you'll still need minutes to see even a few stars, and about half an hour for your vision to become completely dark adapted to where you can really see the stars.

You keep talking about facts, but the only "truth" you're interested in is the one you've already decided to believe before attempting to find or construct facts leading to it.

And why would NASA have felt compelled to debunk Kaysing's claims during the interview you're referencing? He didn't make those claims until years later, and even after he did he was an obscure crackpot for many more years after that.

Simply adopting a condescending tone of 'let's reassure the five-year-old-children there is no bogeyman under the bed <fx ha ha ha let's just laugh it off as childlike silliness> is really what makes it a poor 'debunk' to a reasonable point. And we can see that Moore has a tone of faux-jollity to carefully place the question in a specific term rather than the broader one as set by Kaysing.
There is no bogeyman under the bed. Don't you realize that in your analogy you're the five-year-old child insisting that there's a monster under your bed? You couldn't have picked a better analogy for your position than this.

And again, none of these people had heard of Bill Kaysing, or his idiotic ideas about stars and photography.
See how the claim is dismissed by instead of answering Kaysing's point, they start focusing on a very specific example of 'if you are on the daylight side of the Moon (=implying full bright sunshine and full albedo [ha! got the word in]) then the human eye <fx yawn launches into a totally obfuscating lecture on how the human eye works> so I am afraid it made me frown at how the question was neatly side-stepped and presented as a 'debunk' when it was nothing of the sort.
Performative incredulity doesn't make the facts about light levels and human vision any less real. If you're standing in the open in bright sunlight, your eyes aren't going to be able to perceive anything as dim as stars. The visor assemblies used during the EVAs had multiple shades and tinted visors to help the crews deal with the bright light.
For one, the astronauts were there at Moon dawn not 'daylight'.
No. They were there at the earth equivalent of an hour after dawn. And again, because you keep ignoring facts you don't like, lunar dawn is not like earth dawn. There is no pale, predawn light in the east - no gradual increase in light level - no soft, atmospherically filtered glow - no reddish-orange sun dim enough to look at directly with no retinal damage. Without an atmosphere, once the sun has cleared the horizon, it's as bright as it's going to get until it sets.
You yourself handwave it away as you've taken pictures of solar eclipses and you don't recall seeing stars (er, of course not!) but these guys were the 'first men on the Moon', remember? Heightened emotions and awareness, rather like the day you got married or graduated or your kid was born. Not, oh we had a great holiday on the Moon, but can't remember whether we saw stars. 'Erm, ahem, this would be because the human eye blah blah blah...'
Heightened emotions indeed.

Like with your other conspiracy theory threads, you've comprehensively lost this argument, which was never about anything more than trying to play the role of the brilliant outsider who sees what no one else is clever enough to see.

You've been exposed to a plethora of facts that disprove the hoax claims you've presented. You've had your misconceptions explained to you, multiple times. But the sad fact is that you'd rather continue advancing dumb arguments than admit that you were wrong.
 
Since you asked me a direct question pertaining to the topic of the thread, here is an image of the sun rising on a Moon surface dawn which was amongst the first to come up on BING.

What do you notice in the sky?

View attachment 73083

Caption:

Lunar dawn awakens with the sun rising over the rugged Moon surface revealing detailed craters and a starry indigo sky. A breathtaking view captures the moment when the sun rises over the Moon's rugged surface, illuminating craters and rocky terrain with a warm, golden glow against a deep indigo sky. ​


(AI Generated Image)

NB
You will see grey shaded areas because it is digitally enhanced to do so.
What new bollocks is this now?
 
Since you asked me a direct question pertaining to the topic of the thread, here is an image of the sun rising on a Moon surface dawn which was amongst the first to come up on BING.

What do you notice in the sky?

View attachment 73083

Caption:

Lunar dawn awakens with the sun rising over the rugged Moon surface revealing detailed craters and a starry indigo sky. A breathtaking view captures the moment when the sun rises over the Moon's rugged surface, illuminating craters and rocky terrain with a warm, golden glow against a deep indigo sky. ​


(AI Generated Image)

NB
You will see grey shaded areas because it is digitally enhanced to do so.
That's not a photograph, Vixen. It's someone's cheesy art project. 😁
 
T'other day you said it would take a shutter speed of 1,000's of seconds.
No.

I said that the difference between the tens of seconds it takes to expose stars and the shutter speeds used in ordinary sunlit photography (e.g., 1/125 second) differ by a factor of approximately 1,000 corresponding to the orders of magnitude difference in the brightness of starlight and the brightness of sunlit objects.

Allen's expectations appear to be off by a factor of 1,000, not by some marginal amount. I assume a "numbers person" understands what it means for a quantity to be wrong by a factor, but you leave me doubting that assumption.

You reported that it would take tens of seconds to expose stars on ISO 160 film. I agree, and provided my own photos to demonstrate it. That's the figure we're using.

Since they knew in advance...
No, that's not the question and we answered that one many times already.

Marcus Allen says that stars should incidentally be visible in the Apollo 11 photographs irrespective of any desire or plan to photograph stars. But you know it takes tens of seconds to expose stars on ISO 160 film. Was Allen's expectation reasonable according to the facts?
 
Last edited:
As if posting the image itself was not a sufficient error to maintain your 100% record, you've added this NB which is complete bollocks. There is no digital enhancement, the whole image is generated by AI.

And look at it; what do you think it's showing? It looks like a view from the surface of the Moon, with the Moon in the distance eclipsing the Sun. Total fantasy, and you have the nerve to offer this as some sort of evidence?
Maybe they are the cold moons of Jaglan Betetta.
Don't forget your towel.
 
Allen's point is rather, that stars do not show in the photos because he believes they were not taken on the Moon, for several reasons.
And he is wrong. Provably wrong. Proven wrong. He can believe whatever the hell he likes, but he doesn't get to call his belief a 'fact'.

He has stated that the photographs taken on the moon's surface by the Apollo 11 mission should have shown stars. You have been asked many, many times whether you think this is a reasonable position (given the facts about equipment, settings etc.) . It's a straightforward Yes/No question but you simply refuse to answer.

It's really quite easy, look ---> No.

That didn't hurt.

I'm wrong every now and then. Not often, because I'm pretty careful not to state things as fact unless I'm pretty sure of my myself. But it happens, and when it does I acknowledge the error, learn from it, and move on. It's not painful, and it actually helps one improve.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom