Merged (edited) General thoughts about Christianity and the bible

[Ryan O'Dine]

To continue the line of thought from the previous post, it seems that some people cling to religion because they just really, really want to believe in magic. It starts with the presumption that things can occur entirely outside the body of laws that apply to everything else. Or in other words, they presume magic exists and is real. It's not just an application of a higher or hidden law. It's a flagrant defiance of law.

Then you get a god, which is a being who can do the magic. Having powerful friends is a pleasing and flattering thought, so pretending you have a personal relationship with a magical friend becomes attractive. Your friend can do magic on your behalf, and might consent to do so.

But then some people are more friendly with the god than others. Or so they say. And to prove they are more friendly with the god, they do magic tricks too, because the god lets them. And they get megachurches and private jets to reward them for their special status as assistant magicians. What's wrong with this? That's how you get people like Peter Popoff, who explicitly faked the magic. That's not to say everyone who claims the ability to work the magic is explicitly lying. In most cases you just have to get people to share your delusion in a rhetorical framework that excuses failure: "You weren't faithful enough," or "It's simply God's will to the contrary," etc.

The end game is when everyone gets to be a magician. Instead of just praying for intercession, the congregant comes to believe he is a magical agent on his own. It's still delegated magical authority from on high, but the newly minted magician gets to believe he is special because the magic is wrought with his direct involvement. This isn't just limited to Evangelicals. Every Mormon male is told he has a magical priesthood that can work miracles. There's a whole ceremony where that magical power is conferred.

Who wouldn't want to be part of a system where you get to defy natural law? You have magical powers that others don't. You never have to actually prove you have any such powers. There's always an excuse for why evidence is missing, or why asking for it is inappropriate.

That's the carrot. We have already discussed the stick at length.

Thanks a lot Jay, you've up and converted me to Mormonism. Jerk.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

My daughter had 138,000 puppies that followed her around. And we never found out what the gugs were.

Dave

I don't think that's possible, and this dovetails into the Jews wandering around the desert. Your house would be full of imaginary poop, there'd be no room for anything else.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I don't think that's possible, and this dovetails into the Jews wandering around the desert. Your house would be full of imaginary poop, there'd be no room for anything else.

Maybe it was. Maybe it still is!!!

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Question: How does natural selection introduce new information?
Isn't it limited to what already exists? From which the selections are made. ???
Seems that diminishing returns would be more likely.

Mark E Smith has entered this conversation too:

This is the Three Rs, the Three Rs: Repetition, repetition, repetition!

Repetition, repetition, repetition
Repetition, repetition, Regal Zonophone
There is no hesitation
This is your situation
Continue a blank generation
Blank generation
Same old blank generation
Groovy blank generation
Swinging blank generation
Repetition, repetition, repetition...

 

[Olmstead]

Question: How does natural selection introduce new information?
Isn't it limited to what already exists? From which the selections are made. ???
Seems that diminishing returns would be more likely.

1. Define information.
2. Mutations do add new genetic material, variety, and features. We observe it. It happens.
3. Random noise maximizes information.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

I don't think that's possible, and this dovetails into the Jews wandering around the desert. Your house would be full of imaginary poop, there'd be no room for anything else.

Now I *really* don't want to think about what mana tasted like.

 

[Rusty Tyler]

you do understand what "random" means, right?

It doesn't mean new information.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It doesn't mean new information.

Okay, you don't understand what 'random' means.

If I copy out a telephone number over and over, and sometimes make mistakes, have I typed a few new numbers or no new numbers?

 

[Rusty Tyler]

Do random mutations mean new information?
Random is selected from available information.

 

[jimbob]

It doesn't mean new information.

Now add in natural selection.

Some trait makes an organism more likely to have more offspring that reproduce

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

The different information comes from random genetic mutation. Selection just means that not all of those will survive.

 

[Rusty Tyler]

Okay, you don't understand what 'random' means.

If I copy out a telephone number over and over, and sometimes make mistakes, have I typed a few new numbers or no new numbers?

All those numbers came from the available set of numbers.
No new numbers were created. All phone numbers use a base ten system.

 

[Rusty Tyler]

Some trait makes an organism more likely to have more offspring that reproduce

Some AVAILABLE trait makes an organism more likely to have more offspring that reproduce.
No new information. (material)

 

[JayUtah]

Do random mutations mean new information?

Define "information" as you're using it here.

Random is selected from available information.

Random means that among a set of discrete values, each value has an equal probability of being selected at each trial. There are four nucleotides. Tell me what you think this means in terms of a "random mutation?"

 

[Rusty Tyler]

The different information comes from random genetic mutation. Selection just means that not all of those will survive.

Chosen from AVAILABLE information.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Do random mutations mean new information?
Random is selected from available information.

Random mutations make random changes in the information. So yes that is new information. It might be valid or it might be gibberish but it is new. If I get a phone number wrong that is a new number. It might be a valid number that works or it might be unused, but it's one I didn't have before.

I cannot parse what you think you mean by "Random is selected from available information".

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

In fact, if there never was any new information, we all come from Adam and Eve, and if you take the rib story at face value, Eve probably had the same genes as Adam. So where do all the different genes for blond hair, red hair, brown hair, black hair, albinism come from in your view? We'd just be limited to a choice of 4 alleles for each gene tops (2 from Adam and 2 from Eve). There are provably more for all genes.

 

[JayUtah]

All those numbers came from the available set of numbers.
No new numbers were created. All phone numbers use a base ten system.

Then you're just equivocating on what "new" means.

 

[Rusty Tyler]

Random means that among a set of discrete values, each value has an equal probability of being selected at each trial.

From a set of AVAILABLE discrete values. (not new)

 

[sinnikal]

Some AVAILABLE trait makes an organism more likely to have more offspring that reproduce.
No new information. (material)

You don't know what a de novo mutation is, do you?
I suggest you improve your knowledge before you try to school people who actually do know.