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Apollo 11 Moon Landing Revisited: Hoax ~vs~ Debunk

Trebuchet said:
It appears the OP has left the building once again. But never fear, I'm sure they'll be back to repeat all the previous stuff.
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And to ignore the sillier stuff she brought up.

I’m still hoping for a Vixen to “do the math” and explain why it’s problematic to spend 3 minutes taking photos during a 2.5 hour EVA. She definitely didn’t get minutes and seconds confused, so I’m curious as to what she was actually getting at.
 
I often wondered what Sting was going on about when he was singing 'I hope my legs don't break, walking on the moon'. But I now see the rather obvious reason for that strange lyric. With him being one sixth as strong on the moon, his guitar would have been waaaay too heavy.
 
welshdean said:
I often wondered what Sting was going on about when he was singing 'I hope my legs don't break, walking on the moon'. But I now see the rather obvious reason for that strange lyric. With him being one sixth as strong on the moon, his guitar would have been waaaay too heavy.
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Have you considered the alternative explanation that he's just ◊◊◊◊ annoying?
 
Axxman300 said:
First, the lunar gravity thing was known AND TAUGHT in junior high schools, and high schools in the 1920s and 1930s. It was an easy and fun ratio that told kids if we ever got to the moon we could lift heavy things. It was assumed by students that gravity and muscle mass are two different concepts, which they are. Also, all things are relative. A man on the moon is strong because he was born on earth where gravity is stronger. Someday there will be people who will be BORN AND RAISED ON THE MOON. Guess what happens when they fly down to Florida to visit Disney World? Yup, they'll need a wheel chair, and I'm not a medical doctor, but I doubt their bodies would do very well.
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I asked ChatGPT and found the answer fascinating.

How would a human born and raised on the Moon do if they went on a vacation trip to earth?​

A human born and raised on the Moon would probably find a trip to Earth fascinating, but also physically challenging and potentially dangerous.

The biggest issue: gravity​

The Moon's gravity is only about 1/6 of Earth's gravity. If someone spent their entire life growing up there:

  • Their bones would likely be less dense.
  • Their muscles, especially in the legs and back, would be weaker.
  • Their heart and circulatory system would be adapted to pumping blood in low gravity.
When they arrived on Earth, they would suddenly weigh six times more.

A lunar-born adult who weighs 70 kg on Earth would feel only about 12 kg of weight on the Moon. Earth would feel crushingly heavy.

What would it feel like?​

Imagine:

  • Standing up would be exhausting.
  • Walking might require assistive devices at first.
  • Climbing stairs could feel like carrying a heavy backpack all the time.
  • Even lifting your arms might feel surprisingly tiring.
Many lunar-born people might need:

  • Months of physical therapy.
  • Exoskeletons or powered support suits.
  • Medical supervision during their stay.

Other health challenges​

Bones and fractures​

If bone development is significantly altered in lunar gravity, Earth gravity could increase the risk of:

  • Stress fractures
  • Joint injuries
  • Back problems

Heart and blood pressure​

Astronauts returning from space often experience:

  • Dizziness
  • Difficulty standing
  • Reduced exercise capacity
A lunar-born person might experience these effects much more strongly.

Balance and coordination​

Their brains would have developed in a different gravitational environment.

Things Earthlings take for granted—walking, catching a ball, judging how objects fall—might initially feel strange.

Breathing and atmosphere​

Earth's atmosphere is much denser than any controlled lunar habitat atmosphere would likely be.

A lunar visitor might find:

  • Wind unsettling
  • Rain bizarre
  • Humidity uncomfortable
  • Storms frightening
The first experience of standing outside without a spacesuit would probably be unforgettable.

Could they eventually adapt?​

Probably, especially if they arrived young.

Human bodies are remarkably adaptable. With:

  • Strength training
  • Medical treatment
  • Possibly medications to improve bone density
many lunar-born people could learn to function on Earth.

However, if lunar gravity seriously affects development during childhood, some changes might be permanent. A lunar-born person might never be as strong or physically capable in Earth's gravity as someone who grew up on Earth.

The reverse comparison​

An Earth-born person visiting the Moon would initially feel almost superhuman:

  • Jumping several meters high.
  • Carrying huge loads.
  • Moving effortlessly.
A Moon-born visitor arriving on Earth would experience the opposite: feeling as though everything—including their own body—had suddenly become enormously heavy.

In a realistic future with permanent lunar settlements, "Earth vacation packages" for Moon-born residents might look less like tourism and more like a medically supervised athletic training program before they could comfortably enjoy sightseeing in places like Grand Canyon or Mount Everest.
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Didn't even consider things like how amazing it must feel for someone from a planet without a breathable atmosphere to suddenly not need a space suit, or for someone from the Moon to experience rain and wind.
 
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Safe-Keeper said:
Didn't even consider things like how amazing it must feel for someone from a planet without a breathable atmosphere to suddenly not need a space suit, or for someone from the Moon to experience rain and wind.
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The James S.A. Corey novels (The Expanse) mention this whenever an off-Earth character visits Earth. The notion of simply walking around outside unprotected, with plenty of water and breathable air and a sky over their heads instead of a dome, is too much for some of them.
 
In The Expanse, don't they also use the high gravity of Earth as a method of torture for belters who grew up in a low gravity environment?

That's completely unrealistic, since we learned from Vixen earlier in this thread that higher gravity doesn't cause things to weigh more.
 
PSXer said:
In The Expanse, don't they also use the high gravity of Earth as a method of torture for belters who grew up in a low gravity environment?

That's completely unrealistic, since we learned from Vixen earlier in this thread that higher gravity doesn't cause things to weigh more.
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And the MMC trains in 1g (aboard ships accelerating at 1g). Yet Sgt. Draper still has a hard time when she visits earth for the first time.

And then there's poor Solomon Epstein...
 
JesseCuster said:
I think Vixen would make a great 9/11 truther.
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She already claimed in one of the iterations of the Estonia thread that WTC7 shouldn't have collapsed. When I asked her why structural engineers in Russia, China, Iran, and Cuba haven't blown the whistle on this huge hole in the "official" story, her ridiculous excuse was that their governments won't let them. As I mentioned in my response, there aren't enough laughing dogs to do that one justice.
 
High end racing cars like Formula 1 and FIA sports prototypes can produce some astonishing accelerations both laterally and longitudinally. At the Istanbul Park circuit there's a long, fast left hand curve with multiple radii on which F1 cars reached as much as 5.5g. And from high speeds with maximum aero downforce, F1 cars can brake at as much as 5g. That means that a 140 lb. driver will be pressed into his harness with a weight of 700 lbs under braking.*

This is why the people who drive such cars have to have some of the most intensive physical training of any athletes in the world, especially regarding their neck muscles. The fact that their "ratios" stay the same under such intense acceleration doesn't magically make the experience equal to the effort needed in only 1g.


* As a fascinating aside, braking in a car with so much aerodynamic downforce is complicated by the fact that as speed decreases, so does the downforce. So the driver has to modulate brake pedal force to maintain braking at the adhesion limit of the tires, or the brakes will suddenly lock. And this all happens very fast. I've seen F1 cars on the Spa Francorchamps circuit brake for the Bus Stop Chicane from ~220 mph to ~50 mph in under 3 seconds.
 
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SpitfireIX said:
She already claimed in one of the iterations of the Estonia thread that WTC7 shouldn't have collapsed. When I asked her why structural engineers in Russia, China, Iran, and Cuba haven't blown the whistle on this huge hole in the "official" story, her ridiculous excuse was that their governments won't let them. As I mentioned in my response, there aren't enough laughing dogs to do that one justice.
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I personally know a lot of engineers, including my wife and (in one more year) my son. If I disappear it's because I was foolish enough to ask them if they ever had someone from the Gubmint stop by during their freshman year to have a talk with them about blowing the whistle on the moon landings.
 
The question of why the engineering community doesn't blow the whistle on supposedly fake Apollo missions has some entertaining answers.

The foremost is the usual carrot-and-stick argument. Engineers are promised amazingly lucrative careers if they keep their mouths shut (where's my Ferrari?) and threatened with harm to themselves and families if they don't. And despite this strategy failing spectacularly in every other context where it's tried (deathbed confessions, etc.) it has managed to work here perfectly for more than 50 years.

Next comes the notion that modern engineering students don't study the Apollo missions and generally don't know much about them. The conspiracy theorists can claim then they have done a deeper dive and can therefore speak with greater knowledge and understanding on whether Apollo was authentic. This fits well into the proposition that people cling to conspiracy theories to make them look smart. They can often appear more knowledgeable than lay people. But when pressed they really can't display an expert's knowledge. Or in some people's case, a child's knowledge. But the funny thing is how popular Apollo is among engineers. They rightly look at it as the pinnacle achievement of what they're taught was the Golden Age of Aerospace. They study it on their own and take lessons from it.

Alongside that is the notion that conspiracy theorists aren't better experts at engineering, but instead they have a different mode of thinking that gives them the intuition to understand how Apollo had to have been fake. They pivot the discussion away from technology to such things as their presumably better understanding of human nature and governments. This intuition, they say, is mission from left-brained people who are too close to the problem to see the "big picture."

Finally there is the outright claim that engineers have blow the whistle—just no one you've ever heard of. Bill Kaysing claimed to be an engineer, but was no such thing. Anders Björkman claimed to be an engineer but was no such thing. Ralph René claimed to be an engineer but was no such thing. Nowadays it's all Russian academics from places you've never heard of writing papers for Aulis. They claim such things as photo analysis that proves the Saturn V wasn't flying as fast as claimed etc. In addition to completely unverifiable credentials, these offerings are comically bad on their face. These high-octane "Russian academics" seem to fail at basic physics and geometry.

People who attempt a technical argument with me generally start out with the typical half-baked claims ("The spacecraft skin was too thin! Ahhh, radiation!") believing that they can bluster their way through the science. As soon as they find out that I'm an engineer and can see through the bluster easily, they usually pivot to saying I'm ideologically compromised first because I believe Apollo was real (circular) and second because I was trained by Establishment sources who fed me a line of technical codswallop designed to prevent me from finding out The Truth. I'm always amused by claims that there exists some secret true physics that only conspiracy theorists know, and that all practicing engineers are taught something that doesn't work—all just to protect Apollo. The delusions get pretty weird with some people.
 
JayUtah said:
The James S.A. Corey novels (The Expanse) mention this whenever an off-Earth character visits Earth. The notion of simply walking around outside unprotected, with plenty of water and breathable air and a sky over their heads instead of a dome, is too much for some of them.
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Asimov also touched on this in several of the Robot novels.
 
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