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Merged (edited) General thoughts about Christianity and the bible

To be fair, most old gods were not omniscient and omnipotent, nor have a perfect plan for the next billion years. They were just very powerful. I mean, even the OT God repents his previous decisions and gives the flood as a server reset. Among other things. It doesn't sound to me like someone who planned it all from the start and knew exactly how it would go ever after.
 
Rusty Tyler said:
Requiring evidence defeats faith.
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Having evidence would similarly defeat faith.

Anselm's argument concludes God is a 'necessary being' and therefore exists. But if that proved God exists, that would obviate faith in whether He existed or not. Your argument appears to be with St Anselm and not with science, which you misunderstand.
 
Rusty Tyler said:
My agnostic friend says the same thing. "I don't need it."
What would have to happen to you before you reached the breaking point of calling on anything that would save you?
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But why would i, when I don't believe there are any gods? I have had some truly awful things happen in my life, things that many people would agree are among the hardest you can go through. The thought of calling on something I don't believe in never even crossed my mind. I don't think you understand what it means to not believe in any gods at all.

Rusty Tyler said:
Does that really require faith, or is it fear-based activity based on fear?
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Fear-based activity based on fear, is that similar to evidentiary evidence?

It certainly seems to me that your faith is based on fear; fear of death without an afterlife, fear of being alone without anything to call on, and, of course, fear of being punished for not believing.
 
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Rusty Tyler said:
Tell me more? Example?
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From your NIV:

Isaiah 7

10 Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 11 “Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”

12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.”

13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[c] a sign

Had to search for some of the others:

Judges 6:36-40
New International Version
36 Gideon said to God, “If you will save Israel by my hand as you have promised— 37 look, I will place a wool fleece on the threshing floor. If there is dew only on the fleece and all the ground is dry, then I will know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you said.” 38 And that is what happened. Gideon rose early the next day; he squeezed the fleece and wrung out the dew—a bowlful of water.

39 Then Gideon said to God, “Do not be angry with me. Let me make just one more request. Allow me one more test with the fleece, but this time make the fleece dry and let the ground be covered with dew.” 40 That night God did so. Only the fleece was dry; all the ground was covered with dew.

2 Kings 20:8-11
New International Version
8 Hezekiah had asked Isaiah, “What will be the sign that the Lord will heal me and that I will go up to the temple of the Lord on the third day from now?”

9 Isaiah answered, “This is the Lord’s sign to you that the Lord will do what he has promised: Shall the shadow go forward ten steps, or shall it go back ten steps?”

10 “It is a simple matter for the shadow to go forward ten steps,” said Hezekiah. “Rather, have it go back ten steps.”

11 Then the prophet Isaiah called on the Lord, and the Lord made the shadow go back the ten steps it had gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.
 
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Darat said:
From your NIV:

Isaiah 7

10 Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 11 “Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”

12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.”

13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[c] a sign
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Yes, signs were given. But in general...
"Blessed are those who believe without seeing."
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Requiring faith defeats the principle of the scientific theory
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Plus, faith in some god is pretty useless for science anyway. It answers an entirely different question. Instead of HOW it happens (e.g., how the universe started) it postulates an answer to WHO did it. Which is completely useless for anything. You can't build an engine from "god made diesel flammable." You need a bit more.
 
Rusty Tyler said:
That's a great question. Thanks.

Things unbelievable are presented that require faith to benefit from.

Those who believe receive the benefits, those who do not believe do not receive the benefits.

Ultimately, everyone will believe. IMHO
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The great thing about reality is that you don't have to believe in it for it to exist.
 
Rusty Tyler said:
Yes, signs were given. But in general...
"Blessed are those who believe without seeing."
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Yes, but as I was saying, the same could apply to almost any other god. Like, you didn't have to see Osiris (kinda impossible since he was no longer in this world) to have him judge your heart.

Plus, your argument kinda defeats Christianity as a whole. If Jesus is God (cf trinitarian doctrine), why would he show himself risen to those 300 people? Is Peter less blessed than you because he saw?
 
One of the problems is I've never been able to understand why 'faith' is so valuable to a god in the first place. Unless it's a game mechanic where the 'faith of your followers' stat is what gives a god its power, but then what gives a creator god its initial power of creation? Or is that one a starting condition freebie and after that you need the faith of followers to recharge it?

If a god doesn't literally need faith, why should a god be so concerned with it?

If a god showed up and demonstrated itself so unequivocally that we'd believe in it as a fact like this cup of coffee is a fact, that is bad because that would remove my choice to just have faith, that is, belief without proof.

But WHY is that bad? My coffee wouldn't be better if, before I got it, I had to freely choose to believe in coffee. There's either coffee or there isn't.

And then of course you have all the God-botherers who say there IS evidence and it's all around you and you're just in denial.

'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says god, 'because proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing.'

'but,' says man, 'the beauty in the world is a dead giveaway isn't it? it proves you exist and so therefore you don't. QED.'

'oh dear, I hadn't thought of that,' says god, and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

(apologies of course to douglas adams.)
 
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