Understanding the Liberal Mindset

[dann]

NOTE: Worth keeping in mind that the original anti-vaxxers were politically left wing, not right wing.

Why exactly is it worth keeping in mind?
Is this also worth keeping in mind?

Anti-Vaccination League of America (Wikipedia)
In 1908, the Anti-Vaccination League of America was created by Charles M. Higgins and industrialist John Pitcairn Jr., with anti-vaccination campaigns focused on New York and Pennsylvania. Members were opposed to compulsory vaccination laws. Higgins was the League's chief spokesman and pamphleteer. Historian James Colgrove noted that Higgins "attempted to overturn the New York State's law mandating vaccination of students in public schools".

Charles Michael Higgins (October 4, 1854 – October 21, 1929) was an Irish-American ink manufacturer and anti-vaccinationist.
John Pitcairn Jr. (January 10, 1841 – July 22, 1916) was a Scottish-born American industrialist. With just an elementary school education, Pitcairn rose through the ranks of the Pennsylvania railroad industry, and played a significant role in the creation of the modern oil and natural gas industries.

 

[dann]

On the other hand the potential damage from the totalitarian takeovers in a number of countries could well be a century of world wars, and it will certainly mean no coordination on fighting climate change.

It will mean coordination on defending the fossil-fuel industry against any and all criticism and coordination on attacking climate science.

 

[dann]

Certain people look at the bad things their side do and have to believe the other side is just as bad, otherwise they have to accept that their side is the bad guys.
Also, it gives lazy sods an excuse not to get up off their arses to go and vote.

Unfortunately, getting up off their arses to go and vote gives voters an excuse to let it be at that:
'But I already did my part! You can't expect me to go to a protest!'

 

[dann]

Racist, sexist garbage.

Explain!

Clanker sludge.
More clanker sludge.

Yes, I quoted Elmo's Grok. It would have made no sense to post the desperat non-bot X user's tweets without the Grok quotations.

@dann , did you even notice that Grok thinks socialism and Marxism are the same thing, and that revolutionary communists are Marxists? Or did that part seem as normal to you as the racism and sexism on display in your previous post?

No, I didn't even notice that! Post 699:

Grok: "Socialism's core remains economic: collective ownership/control of production to prioritize class equality over private profit. "Non-textbook" aspects—like heavy welfare states, union power, or cultural emphasis on solidarity—are extensions of that economic base in practice. They differ by country and era (e.g., Nordic models vs. Soviet-style).
Nazis rejected this foundation entirely, using the "socialist" name for worker appeal while purging actual socialists, allying with capitalists, and centering racial hierarchy instead. That's not an added "aspect"—it's a different ideology."

However, I'm pretty sure that I would have noticed if Denmark had adopted Soviet-style communism.

 

[Mojo]

The dilemma arises when both sides are well stocked with ne'er-do-wells.

Very fine people on both sides, though?

 

[dirtywick]

You'll get no argument from me. Anti-vaxxers are nutcases... I have them in my own family unfortunately...

NOTE: Worth keeping in mind that the original anti-vaxxers were politically left wing, not right wing. The compulsory smallpox vaccination in the late 1800s was opposed by the working-class, libertarians, and liberals, arguing that those compulsory vaccinations were infringements on bodily autonomy and individual freedoms (sound familiar?)
By the 70s and 80s it was the the counterculture movement... enviromentalists (in my country, the Values Party), and the types of people who beleived in herbal medicines, driven by a distrust of pharmaceutical corporations and synthetic medical interventions. These were very much politically left-leaning. Conservatives were predominantly pro-vaccination... then Covid came along, and all hell broke loose.

yeah they were left leaning and rightfully kept to the fringe, but it’s become mainstream amongst the right recently.

but i think you avoided answering my question.

surely, if you’re coming at this with a pro follow the science opinion, being “correct” on trans issues but coming with the baggage of being dead wrong on both the climate and vaccines is much worse? to the point where you’d accuse someone of being looney tunes and living in a fantasy world? and then you say the board has jumped the shark, but i can pull up your post history and see the only thread you’ve posted in besides this one is the trans thread.

like, your entire perspective is based off of that one topic which seems wrong and unfair to me

 

[plague311]

The right-wing is assuredly the anti-science party. Anyone believing otherwise is severely misinformed.

 

[theprestige]

Explain!

It's self evident. The material you posted makes racist and sexist claims.

Yes, I quoted Elmo's Grok. It would have made no sense to post the desperat non-bot X user's tweets without the Grok quotations.

It makes no sense to post either. A conversation between a person and an LLM is worthless, outside the narrow field of studying a person's relationship with an LLM.

No, I didn't even notice that! Post 699:

However, I'm pretty sure that I would have noticed if Denmark had adopted Soviet-style communism.

Yeah, probably.

 

[steenkh]

You'll get no argument from me. Anti-vaxxers are nutcases

I agree. Anti-vax is not a right/left thing but a question of a certain degree of lack of education, just plain stupidity. I know right- and left-leaning persons who believe that big pharma is withholding the terrible side effects of vaccines, and even if the vaccines work, the side effects should make us pause. Right-leaning types think that bleach or ivermectin does a better job, and left-leaning types think that the healing powers of crystals or similar can be harnessed to rid us of diseases.

But these days, it is the far right that is imposing their anti-vax policies on the rest of the world.

 

[smartcooky]

surely, if you’re coming at this with a pro follow the science opinion,

I come at everything from a follow the science position. There are no exceptions IMO.

being “correct” on trans issues but coming with the baggage of being dead wrong on both the climate and vaccines is much worse?

The two positions are irreconcilable IMO.... anyone who follows the science with respect to vaccines and climate change, but ignores the fact that biological science is settled on the reality that there are only two sexes, is suffering from the most basic level of cognitive dissonance. Either you follow the science or you don't - there is no picky-choosy.

to the point where you’d accuse someone of being looney tunes and living in a fantasy world? and then you say the board has jumped the shark

ANY critical thinker who believes sex is on a spectrum, or that ivermectin cures Covid19, or that the world isn't running headlong down a path towards an apocalyptic climate disaster, is living in fantasyland.

This forum was always moderate left leaning, but in recent years, it has become an echo-chamber for the left and far left. That is why I think it has jumped the shark.

but i can pull up your post history and see the only thread you’ve posted in besides this one is the trans thread.

If that is what you think you found, then you are not very good at using the search function

Thread 'Trump's Second Term'

Nov 15, 2024

General thread.

To kick off, a list of appointees to key positions, notable for their loyalty to Trump.

Trump's picks for key positions in his second administration

Donald Trump is starting to fill key posts in his administration, putting an emphasis on aides and allies who were his strongest backers during the campaign.

apnews.com

• Orphia Nay
• trump trump administration
• Replies: 65,264
• Forum: USA Politics

• 

Ed Thread 'Israel/US Attacks Iran /Yet Another Country/Iran'

Apr 14, 2024

“Booms and air raid sirens sounded across Israel early Sunday after Iran launched hundreds of drones, ballistic missiles and cruise missiles in an unprecedented revenge mission that pushed the Middle East closer to a regionwide war.“

https://apnews.com/article/33fcffde2d867380e98c89403776a8ac

Thought this needed a thread ASAP, so just a brief OP.

• Orphia Nay
• iran israel
• Replies: 6,409
• Forum: Middle East and Africa

Cont: Thread 'The thread for stupidity from GQP politicians who don't have their own thread Part II'

Sep 20, 2023

Continued from here. As is usual, the split point is arbitrary and participants are free to copy & paste from the closed thread.

Posted By: Agatha

The biggest piece of trash was was removed by theater staff

• Donal
• Replies: 3,801
• Forum: USA Politics

Thread 'The behaviour of UK police officers.'

May 18, 2018

This is the UK sleep walking into major problems whereby a 47 year old female police officer, who does not look like she could fight her way out of a wet paper bag, tazers a 64 year old man, who also does not look like he could do much in a fight.

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2018/05/...red-by-court-after-forces-race-relations-adv/

The the key part incident is in the video at 01.20, after a shoving match, which the police officers win as the male is unable to get through the gate he wants to go through. The police officer tazers him in the face.

She was charged...

• Nessie
• police police incidents police issues
• Replies: 4,072
• Forum: Social Issues

B

Cont: Thread 'Corona Virus Conspiracy Theories Part V'

Feb 25, 2022

Continued from here. You may freely quote from previous threads in this series.

Posted By: Agatha

I can't devote my whole day to sneering at you and your lame sources, sorry.

Oh sure, right....of course you were not cherry picking. I understand your point.

Rare Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome Detected in Vaccinated Young: Lancet Study


https://www.theepochtimes.com/rare-m...9ffnvON7XXBaCi

• Bubba
• coronavirus coronavirus conspiracies diseases medical conspiracies
• Replies: 1,445
• Forum: Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Merged Thread 'Concerns over baby killer ignored? / Nurse Lucy Letby killed babies in her care'

Aug 20, 2023

Doctor who helped catch Lucy Letby says 'babies could've been saved' if hospital acted sooner
https://www.itv.com/news/2023-08-18...r-who-helped-catch-lucy-letby-blames-hospital

The doctor who helped catch child-killer Lucy Letby has told ITV News that babies' lives could have been saved if hospital bosses had contacted police sooner.

Dr Ravi Jayaram, who is a consultant paediatrician at the Countess of Chester Hospital, said he repeatedly raised concerns about his former colleague months before police were alerted.

In an exclusive interview, he has...

• Ranb
• babies letby murder
• Replies: 1,518
• Forum: Trials and Errors

Cont: Thread 'Roe v Wade overturned - this is some BS part II'

Sep 12, 2023

Continued from here

Posted By: Agatha

I support abortion rights, but also like rhetoric. What you say is like predigested protein from a tub.

Is a person against murder horrible because poor people saved from murder are still poor? Should people who halt murders support poor post-not-murdered support funds?

I too like rhetoric. As a sales rep, it is the bread and butter of my industry. It is also the bread and butter of the GOP. They are good at oversimplifying issues. It might sell well to those who agree with them. But for everyone else it is transparent deception. The...

• acbytesla
• Replies: 812
• Forum: USA Politics

Thread 'Gaza residents surviving off animal feed and rice as food dwindles'

Feb 10, 2024

Gaza residents surviving off animal feed and rice as food dwindles

People living in the isolated north of Gaza have told the BBC that children are going without food for days, as aid convoys are increasingly denied permits to enter. Some residents have resorted to grinding animal feed into flour to survive, but even stocks of those grains are now dwindling, they say.

People have also described digging down into the soil to access water pipes, for drinking and washing.

The UN has warned that acute malnutrition among young children in the north has risen sharply, and is now...

• shemp
• gaza israel palestine
• Replies: 2,884
• Forum: Non-USA & General Politics

• 

Thread 'A Revolution Could Soon Be Under Way in Iran'

Jan 5, 2026

‘We want the mullahs gone’: economic crisis sparks biggest protests in Iran since 2022

Demonstrations against deteriorating living conditions have widened to include criticism of how Iran is governed

www.theguardian.com

Some of us are old enough to remember how the leftists' embrace of Islamists played out in Iran. I was 24, in the military, and fully understood the import and the impact of the Iranian revolution.

Leading up to 1979, leftist groups consisting of trade unions members, university students and left-wing progressives allied with Islamist factions to overthrow Mohammad Reza Pahlavim the Shah of Iran. This came to be known as the "unholy alliance" and...

• smartcooky
• Replies: 327
• Forum: Middle East and Africa

• 

... and those are just a few from the first page of five pages of my subscriptions

like, your entire perspective is based off of that one topic which seems wrong and unfair to me

My perspective of both left and right is based off many things other than that one, its just one of the two I chose to use as examples, but there is a lot more to criticise -
- the anti-Semitism of the left
- the anti-vaxxers of the right
- the authoritarianism of both sides (Stasi-Starmer and Der Trumpenführer)

and much more

Also, and this is important, I choose not to post very much on certain topics because the debate has become truly toxic. If you even remotely criticise pro-Palestinian protesters, or offer any pro-Israel opinion on this forum, you are dogpiled with anti-Semitic, vile insults to which the admins seem to turn a blind eye. I prefer not to expose myself to that vileness. I keep those opinions off this forum and only discuss them elsewhere.

 

[dirtywick]

I come at everything from a follow the science position. There are no exceptions IMO.


The two positions are irreconcilable IMO.... anyone who follows the science with respect to vaccines and climate change, but ignores the fact that biological science is settled on the reality that there are only two sexes, is suffering from the most basic level of cognitive dissonance. Either you follow the science or you don't - there is no picky-choosy.


ANY critical thinker who believes sex is on a spectrum, or that ivermectin cures Covid19, or that the world isn't running headlong down a path towards an apocalyptic climate disaster, is living in fantasyland.

i disagree, i think some things are much more consequential than others. getting hung up on things that don’t matter, just doesn’t seem like a good thing to me.

This forum was always moderate left leaning, but in recent years, it has become an echo-chamber for the left and far left. That is why I think it has jumped the shark.

i don’t think that’s true. the moderate right disappeared and the far right has been mainstreamed, and had just become indefensible.

i think one of the last few issues the right may have a leg to stand on is the trans debate, which in reality is a minor social issue. probably the reason you’re almost solely relying on it to try and make your point.

i think you guys have even lost the israel/palestine high ground due to israel’s behavior. but i’ll even give you that if you want.

so imo it’s not that it’s an echo chamber, there’s just no justification for the rights lurch into oligarchy and fascism. which sucks if you were emotionally invested as a long time fan, but what are you going to do? that’s what jumped the shark

If that is what you think you found, then you are not very good at using the search function

i apologize, i meant recently and should have said so. i just went a few pages through your recent posts and that’s all that showed up. i’m sure you were more active in more areas in the past

My perspective of both left and right is based off many things other than that one, its just one of the two I chose to use as examples, but there is a lot more to criticise -
- the anti-Semitism of the left
- the anti-vaxxers of the right
- the authoritarianism of both sides (Stasi-Starmer and Der Trumpenführer)

and much more

Also, and this is important, I choose not to post very much on certain topics because the debate has become truly toxic. If you even remotely criticise pro-Palestinian protesters, or offer any pro-Israel opinion on this forum, you are dogpiled with anti-Semitic, vile insults to which the admins seem to turn a blind eye. I prefer not to expose myself to that vileness. I keep those opinions off this forum and only discuss them elsewhere.

that may be true. i dont participate in every thread on the board either so i suppose you could have a vastly different experience.

 

[smartcooky]

i disagree, i think some things are much more consequential than others. getting hung up on things that don’t matter, just doesn’t seem like a good thing to me.

Things that might not seem consequential to you might be consequential to me. My daughters have both been victims of violent threats by transgender identifying males... that makes it personal for me.

I also consider women's rights, and the way they are under attack by the loony left, to be one of the most consequential issues of our time. Our mothers and grandmothers fought hard for those rights, the rights to be treated something more than second-class citizens and being little more than objects for male gratification. Its distressing to see those rights being given away by far-leftists like "Hypno Tits"

 

[dirtywick]

Things that might not seem consequential to you might be consequential to me. My daughters have both been victims of violent threats by transgender identifying males... that makes it personal for me.

i didn’t say it’s inconsequential. however i think it’s obvious things like vaccination and the climate are much more generally consequential, in that they effect every person in society.

I also consider women's rights, and the way they are under attack by the loony left, to be one of the most consequential issues of our time. Our mothers and grandmothers fought hard for those rights, the rights to be treated something more than second-class citizens and being little more than objects for male gratification. Its distressing to see those rights being given away by far-leftists like "Hypno Tits"

i mean, is this just more trans stuff?

like, it’s not the left taking away women’s access to healthcare, birth control, and bodily autonomy right? is that more consequential than trans stuff? i’d argue it is.

edit

and i think here i will reiterate this seems more like a topic you’re personally emotionally invested in, which is fine and i’m happy that you’re passionate about it. but if you want to speak broadly about the left and right, it’s not a good frame of reference for your audience. it just seems like you’re focused on a single pet issue and going from there

 

[arthwollipot]

I'll probably get dinged for speaking my mind...

In contrast to your pathetic straw argument, we liberals are not against free speech. You are free to say whatever you like, as long as you don't break the rules, which as far as I can tell, you are not. And I am free to criticise your arguments and call them bull ◊◊◊◊.

 

[arthwollipot]

I come at everything from a follow the science position. There are no exceptions IMO.

Bull ◊◊◊◊. You carve out one HUGE exception, but I am not going to elaborate.

 

[arthwollipot]

i mean, is this just more trans stuff?

Yes. Explicitly.

 

[Steve]

Things that might not seem consequential to you might be consequential to me. My daughters have both been victims of violent threats by transgender identifying males... that makes it personal for me.

I also consider women's rights, and the way they are under attack by the loony left, to be one of the most consequential issues of our time. Our mothers and grandmothers fought hard for those rights, the rights to be treated something more than second-class citizens and being little more than objects for male gratification. Its distressing to see those rights being given away by far-leftists like "Hypno Tits"

You have no idea whether those assaults were in any way prompted or exacerbated by the nature of their gender identity.

And of course Donald Trump and the "moderate" right are so enamored of women's rights that they convinced the SCOTUS to rescind their right to abortion. And they are worried that American women are not producing enough babies - they view them as nothing more than reproduction machines. - objects for male gratification.

The right supports a man who "grab(s) 'em by the pussy", who wanders lecherously through the occupied change areas of underage females, who fights like mad to have his relationship with Epstein covered up, who was found in court to be liable for the sexual abuse of E. Jean Carroll. Yes, the right is an enthusiastic supporter of women's rights and shows that at every opportunity.

 

[theprestige]

Bull ◊◊◊◊. You carve out one HUGE exception, but I am not going to elaborate.

No, please do elaborate. There's a whole thread set aside for exactly such elaborations.

 

[dirtywick]

he seems to be coming from a place where he's emotionally invested in the trans debate (which again is fine, it's good to be passionate about your interests, i'm not pretending to be a logic robot here) and since the left is generally in disagreement with him on that issue, they must be anti science. but that's his only frame of reference for that opinion, which imo doesn't hold up broadly.

even if i were to agree that the left is anti-science on that point, which i'm certainly not well read enough to do so but am probably more amenable to that then a lot of people are, there are so many other larger and more consequential issues on which the right is deeply anti-science on that it's kind of hard to take that a serious criticism.

but yeah, that's all i got on it.

 

[plague311]

i mean, is this just more trans stuff?

For some people it's literally their entire identity and persona. It's the only thing that matters. Good to see it's leaked back into this thread.