Merged (edited) General thoughts about Christianity and the bible

[JayUtah]

The clearest answer I've always found to be that nature does not care about your beliefs.

Fundamentalists don't think of science as anything other than testimonial knowledge. They aren't impressed by the scientific method or empirical controls. They're conditioned to believe that those things are just pseudoscientific theater meant to confer an unearned sense of authority on what are really just arbitrary claims. "Things evolve? Haha, you weren't there; you can't know that."

Obviously it's projection. Religion is a mix of testimonial knowledge and experiential knowledge, and religionists therefore come to believe that there can't exist an observable veridical truth or anything like systematically obtained empirical knowledge. Fundamentalism is so firmly rooted in Us v. Them that it's impossible for them to imagine science as altruistic. @Rusty Tyler simply declares that we're "biased" on no better grounds than having reliable knowledge that disputes his belief. When someone is utterly convinced that you're out to get them, no amount of forthrightness can spackle over that paranoia.

Most of the universe, in both distance and time, is not in any way influenced by humanity.

And, frankly, vice versa. Today I'm meeting with building inspectors. We're going over the minutia of safety regulations, variances, action items, and a whole bunch of stuff that has bugger all to do with whether the universe erupted on its own or was farted out of the orifice of some deity.

Yes, there are quite a number of things in the natural world that we need to get right. Following empirical knowledge is the safest, most reliable way to get them right. But cosmology rarely affects our daily lives.

But some people become so lost in their religion that it dominates everything. They really don't live any part of their lives outside that world of testimonial knowledge, so it becomes very real and very important to them.

 

[Mojo]

In what?
How do I square the 7 items above?

You can square them by accepting:
a) that what the Bible says is not true, and;
b) that what you say about evolution is not true.

 

[Rusty Tyler]

You've got through the theology I linked you to pretty quickly.

I saw your post. I think I missed a link.
I'll go look again. Thanks.

 

[Mojo]

...which I don't think is forthcoming. The "Yikes! Mutations!" point is a good example. It doesn't take much effort to understand what scientists mean by it, that it is an early and correct usage of the term, and that co-opting the term decades later for entertainment purposes doesn't reflect backwards on the origin of the term in science. Yet @Rusty persists in casting "mutation" as some sort of scary, dangerous thing that should be avoided at all costs.

And he persists in ignoring selection.

 

[Trebuchet]

First, you already have a thread on evolution. <snip>

Which was a merger of three, after I reported it. Gonna report this one, too.

And in answer to Rusty's question: Nobody cares.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I like the Jesuits. The Capuchins too were always nice to me.

The monkeys? Well, we are all family!

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Nobody said anything about an explosion. If you're referring to something like the Cambrian explosion, then you're just being childishly equivocal.

I think he's talking about 'The Big Bang', or the period of rapid expansion at the beginning of the universe. It obviously is nothing to do with evolution, but.. well, Rusty.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If I say "Crusty" you'll know whom I mean.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

The Bible says: Six days for the creation of everything.
Evolution says: Billions of years of mutations.

The Bible says: God created man (Adam) in their own image.
Evolution says: I'm a monkey's uncle.

The Bible says: Species reproduce after their kind.
Evolution says: Species are produced by mutations.

The Bible says: God created everything for a purpose.
Evolution says: There is no meaning.

The Bible says: Intelligent design.
Evolution says: The result of an explosion.

The Bible says: God spoke the universe into being.
Evolution says: No one knows who pulled the trigger on the big bang.

The Bible says: Jesus paid the death penalty for Adam's sin and ours.
Evolution says: There was no Adam.

You don't. You consider the evidence and decide what answer seems more likely. If those answers don't align with "your Christian beliefs", whatever those are, you ask yourself why you would nonetheless want to hang onto those. If they do, problem solved. Enjoy your next service.

 

[theprestige]

@Rusty Tyler , is your god not miraculous enough to create order from an explosion?

He created the sun, didn't he? That's an explosion, held in stasis by the gravitational pressure of its fuel. There will come a point in the lifetime of the sun where that equilibrium will collapse, and the explosion will be set free. But for now, it's just sitting there, eight light minutes away from us, blasting us with searing radiation... All of which happens to be exactly what's needed, to support life on this planet. That seems pretty miraculous to me. If you god can do all that, why wouldn't he be able to do a big bang to get us here?

It seems to me your problem is not that evolution contradicts your faith, but that your faith is too small to comprehend a god that could create the universe we live in.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

@Rusty Tyler , is your god not miraculous enough to create order from an explosion?

He created the sun, didn't he? That's an explosion, held in stasis by the gravitational pressure of its fuel. There will come a point in the lifetime of the sun where that equilibrium will collapse, and the explosion will be set free. But for now, it's just sitting there, eight light minutes away from us, blasting us with searing radiation... All of which happens to be exactly what's needed, to support life on this planet. That seems pretty miraculous to me. If you god can do all that, why wouldn't he be able to do a big bang to get us here?

It seems to me your problem is not that evolution contradicts your faith, but that your faith is too small to comprehend a god that could create the universe we live in.

You can create diamonds, the most structured form of carbon, in an explosion. And of course the "Big Bang" wasn't an explosion in the same sense as what most of us would think of one.

 

[Rusty Tyler]

You can square them by accepting:
a) that what the Bible says is not true, and;
b) that what you say about evolution is not true.

That would work, sort of.
Not sure I would like where I am left.

Can I go half&half on each?

 

[Rusty Tyler]

is your god not miraculous enough to create order from an explosion?

Is your evolution not big enough to include God?
What would happen if those who gave us evolution checked their work against the Bible first?

He created the sun, didn't he? That's an explosion, held in stasis by the gravitational pressure of its fuel. There will come a point in the lifetime of the sun where that equilibrium will collapse, and the explosion will be set free. But for now, it's just sitting there, eight light minutes away from us, blasting us with searing radiation... All of which happens to be exactly what's needed, to support life on this planet. That seems pretty miraculous to me. If you god can do all that, why wouldn't he be able to do a big bang to get us here?

That something I wondered about. What keeps the sun burning? Thanks.

It seems to me your problem is not that evolution contradicts your faith, but that your faith is too small to comprehend a god that could create the universe we live in.

No. I comprehend quite easily a God that created the universe we live in.

 

[Mojo]

That would work, sort of.
Not sure I would like where I am left.

Can I go half&half on each?

Not if you value truth and honesty.

 

[Rusty Tyler]

You can create diamonds, the most structured form of carbon, in an explosion. And of course the "Big Bang" wasn't an explosion in the same sense as what most of us would think of one.

Tell me more, please.

 

[Mojo]

Is your evolution not big enough to include God?

It has no need of that hypothesis.

 

[Rusty Tyler]

Not if you value truth and honesty.

Yes, I suppose it's one or the other but not both.
Life with God, or life without God.
With no God, who gives a rip where we came from?

 

[theprestige]

Is your evolution not big enough to include God?

My evolution is certainly big enough to include God. I just don't think it's necessary to do so. I don't share your problem.

What would happen if those who gave us evolution checked their work against the Bible first?

This has already been done. We already know what would happen: The theory of evolution, and the scientific paradigm that produced it, have consistently given better explanations of how our world works, than what is given in the Bible. Even if the Bible were telling the truth, it's clear that the language it uses is too vague and poetic to be useful to us for any kind of practical applications.

That something I wondered about. What keeps the sun burning? Thanks.

You didn't just assume it was God, keeping the sun burning?

No. I comprehend quite easily a God that created the universe we live in.

The issue is you don't really comprehend the size and structure of the universe we live in. You believe in a small universe, with a god easily big enough for it. In truth, the universe is huge, and you need to believe in a god big enough to handle the phenomena actually in play.

 

[theprestige]

With no God, who gives a rip where we came from?

Lots of people, actually. There's whole branches of philosophy and science, full of serious people making serious inquiries into where we came from, without positing god.

 

[Darat]

Yes, I suppose it's one or the other but not both.
Life with God, or life without God.
With no God, who gives a rip where we came from?

How have you got on with the theology I linked to, has that not provided a Christian way of accepting evolution and reconciling that with a Christian faith?