banning abortion and rape & incest

[strathmeyer]

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/13984932.htm

Responding to questions about whether he'd sign a bill with no exceptions for rape or incest, Barbour said: "It hasn't gotten to my desk yet. When one gets there, we'll find out, and I suspect I'll sign it. But I would certainly rather it come to my desk with an exception for rape and incest. I think that's consistent with the opinion of the vast majority of Mississippians and Americans."

What's up with incest? Why is incest an alright reason to get an abortion? Is it just because people think the resultant child would be an abomination and thus isn't worth the same as other humans? Or because society thinks that people who commit incest are evil and will pass it on to their offspring? I have to tell you, nothing about the anti-choice movement has ever made any sense to me.

 

[Grammatron]

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/13984932.htm



What's up with incest? Why is incest an alright reason to get an abortion? Is it just because people think the resultant child would be an abomination and thus isn't worth the same as other humans? Or because society thinks that people who commit incest are evil and will pass it on to their offspring? I have to tell you, nothing about the anti-choice movement has ever made any sense to me.

Or it's another reason.

 

[bob_kark]

My understanding is that the mother will often attempt suicide or self-mutilation while pregnant if forced to give birth, killing mother and child. In addition, the birth defects that can result from incest are rather extreme. Typically though, incest usually falls under the rape category anyway.

 

[Art Vandelay]

What I don't get is how a "rape or incest" exception would be implemented. How would a woman go about proving that she was raped, let alone that the baby was conceived during a rape? What if a woman has consensual sex with her boyfriend, breaks up with him, is raped by him, and gets pregnant? Does she get to have an abortion if the baby was conceived during the rape, but not if it was conceived earlier? If a married woman is raped by a stranger, will she have to have a DNA test to see who's the father? What if her husband tampers with her birth control pills?

In addition, making a rape exception would have three profound effects. First, there would be more false accusations of rape, because women will claim to be raped so that they can get an abortion. Two, the fact that there are more false accusations would be used as a defense against charges of rape, meaning more guys would get away with it. Three, as more guys would be gettting away with it, more guys would commit rape.

For incest, what qualifies? Brother and sister? Half brother? Cousin? Double cousin? Half cousin? Second cousin? Brother in law? Adopted brother? Step brother? Foster brother?

This whole rape or incest thing sounds like a reasonable exception at first, but the fact is that in practice, it's completely unworkable. Either we always allow abortions, or we never do. We can't make an exception for rape.

 

[toddjh]

The part I don't understand is, what makes a fetus conceived during rape less deserving of the "right to life" than any other fetus? The argument from the pro-life side has always been that ending the pregnancy is murder...is murdering an innocent person a justifiable response to rape?

 

[bob_kark]

What I don't get is how a "rape or incest" exception would be implemented. How would a woman go about proving that she was raped, let alone that the baby was conceived during a rape? What if a woman has consensual sex with her boyfriend, breaks up with him, is raped by him, and gets pregnant? Does she get to have an abortion if the baby was conceived during the rape, but not if it was conceived earlier? If a married woman is raped by a stranger, will she have to have a DNA test to see who's the father? What if her husband tampers with her birth control pills?

In addition, making a rape exception would have three profound effects. First, there would be more false accusations of rape, because women will claim to be raped so that they can get an abortion. Two, the fact that there are more false accusations would be used as a defense against charges of rape, meaning more guys would get away with it. Three, as more guys would be getting away with it, more guys would commit rape.

For incest, what qualifies? Brother and sister? Half brother? Cousin? Double cousin? Half cousin? Second cousin? Brother in law? Adopted brother? Step brother? Foster brother?

This whole rape or incest thing sounds like a reasonable exception at first, but the fact is that in practice, it's completely unworkable. Either we always allow abortions, or we never do. We can't make an exception for rape.

I agree that it would be difficult to prove rape other than filing a police report. If it simply took a police report to get an abortion, I'm sure there would be more falsified rape charges, but I doubt they'd make it into a courtroom. It would be more likely that after the abortion, the woman would recant her story if it was not truly rape. Also, I'm sure it would seem a bit funny if the accuser waited until she discovered she was pregnant to report the rape. I realize that this is a loophole, but it does seem necessary if there were to be a ban on abortions.

In regards to incest, it seems fairly cut and dry that it should apply only to blood relatives. That is unless it was a rape, which is still covered under its own clause.

 

[bob_kark]

The part I don't understand is, what makes a fetus conceived during rape less deserving of the "right to life" than any other fetus? The argument from the pro-life side has always been that ending the pregnancy is murder...is murdering an innocent person a justifiable response to rape?

Denying a woman who has been raped the right to abort the fetus would result in a similar scenario to the one I presented in my earlier post. There have been many cases of women who have been raped committing suicide or mutilating themselves. Therefore, not allowing them to abort the fetus can result in the loss of two lives rather than one.

 

[toddjh]

I agree that it would be difficult to prove rape other than filing a police report. If it simply took a police report to get an abortion, I'm sure there would be more falsified rape charges, but I doubt they'd make it into a courtroom.

Even an accusation can ruin somebody's life, though.

It would be more likely that after the abortion, the woman would recant her story if it was not truly rape.

Nah. The kind of woman who would fabricate a rape to get an abortion obviously has no problem lying to get what she wants. She'd stick to her story because she comes off better that way.

Also, I'm sure it would seem a bit funny if the accuser waited until she discovered she was pregnant to report the rape.

While this is what someone who was just angling for an abortion would do, it's also something I could see a real rape victim doing. I'm no expert, but my impression is that a lot of rape victims want to keep it hidden. Obviously, if a pregnancy resulted, that would be impossible.

 

[bob_kark]

Even an accusation can ruin somebody's life, though.

Nah. The kind of woman who would fabricate a rape to get an abortion obviously has no problem lying to get what she wants. She'd stick to her story because she comes off better that way.

While this is what someone who was just angling for an abortion would do, it's also something I could see a real rape victim doing. I'm no expert, but my impression is that a lot of rape victims want to keep it hidden. Obviously, if a pregnancy resulted, that would be impossible.

I made a longer post before, but it apparently decided to go AWOL. It boiled down to this though, the stress of deciding to have an abortion is tough enough in the first place. Adding the accusation of an innocent party only makes it more difficult to do so. While I don't doubt that there will still be people capable of doing this, I don't think it will be as rampant as some believe.

That being said, I don't believe that there is a perfect solution to the problem. Perhaps if the loophole was widened to allow a woman to file a police report without pressing charges it would allow situations such as these to not occur. Its not an optimal solution in my opinion, but sometimes compromises must be made.

BTW, your last part of the post was a great point, I didn't think that through too well.

 

[strathmeyer]

Denying a woman who has been raped the right to abort the fetus would result in a similar scenario to the one I presented in my earlier post. There have been many cases of women who have been raped committing suicide or mutilating themselves. Therefore, not allowing them to abort the fetus can result in the loss of two lives rather than one.

This post is nonsense. Denying a woman who does not want to have a child the right to abort the fetus would result in suicide and mutilation. Therefore, not allowing them to abort the fetus can result in the loss of one life rather than none.

 

[bob_kark]

This post is nonsense. Denying a woman who does not want to have a child the right to abort the fetus would result in suicide and mutilation. Therefore, not allowing them to abort the fetus can result in the loss of one life rather than none.

So you're saying that the fetus isn't even a life? I've heard arguments stating that its not a human life, but are you denying that its even a life at all?

 

[toddjh]

So you're saying that the fetus isn't even a life? I've heard arguments stating that its not a human life, but are you denying that its even a life at all?

Come on, you know perfectly well that "human life" is implied.

 

[bob_kark]

Come on, you know perfectly well that "human life" is implied.

I really wasn't trying to play a game of semantics. I never stated the fetus was a human life in my response. If he has an argument that the life is not human, why not bring that up in the OP? Instead, he states that he doesn't understand why the "anti-choice" people think this way. I responded to the question. The only way I could see my response as being nonsensical is if he didn't consider the fetus to be a life at all, which is what he seemed to claim in his response.

 

[strathmeyer]

I really wasn't trying to play a game of semantics. I never stated the fetus was a human life in my response. If he has an argument that the life is not human, why not bring that up in the OP? Instead, he states that he doesn't understand why the "anti-choice" people think this way. I responded to the question. The only way I could see my response as being nonsensical is if he didn't consider the fetus to be a life at all, which is what he seemed to claim in his response.

Ok, so maybe I call things nonsense too much.

You were claiming that allowing a rape victim an abortion was ok because of the possibility that the victim would commit suicide. But I don't understand how abortion is only wrong some of the time. I need you to spell it out for me: when is aborting wrong? Doctors have no problems explaining it. Lawyers have no problem explaining it. Why are you having such a problem?

 

[Kerberos]

I made a longer post before, but it apparently decided to go AWOL. It boiled down to this though, the stress of deciding to have an abortion is tough enough in the first place. Adding the accusation of an innocent party only makes it more difficult to do so. While I don't doubt that there will still be people capable of doing this, I don't think it will be as rampant as some believe.

You seem to be working with the assumption that the rape charge would be leveled at a specific person. I'd think that it would be more likely that a woman who wished to get an abortion would level the charge at "tall, dark haired man, I didn't see his face" than at "Benny from the grocery store". This possibility makes false rape stories more likely, but also less problematic. At least as long as you're pro-free abortion.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I made a longer post before, but it apparently decided to go AWOL. It boiled down to this though, the stress of deciding to have an abortion is tough enough in the first place. Adding the accusation of an innocent party only makes it more difficult to do so. While I don't doubt that there will still be people capable of doing this, I don't think it will be as rampant as some believe.

The decision to have an abortion is hard only for some women. I would expect a high correlation between not being bothered by the decision, and being willing to make a false accusation.

As for your suicide reason, as you said, getting an abortion can be quite stressful, no matter how the pregnancy started. I don't see why you think that suicide is a danger in cases of rape, but not in general. There are plenty of girls who had consensual sex, got pregnant, and committed suicide.

 

[bob_kark]

Ok, so maybe I call things nonsense too much.

You were claiming that allowing a rape victim an abortion was ok because of the possibility that the victim would commit suicide. But I don't understand how abortion is only wrong some of the time. I need you to spell it out for me: when is aborting wrong? Doctors have no problems explaining it. Lawyers have no problem explaining it. Why are you having such a problem?

When a pregnancy poses an unacceptable risk to the life of the mother, I see no problem with an abortion being performed. I morally object to abortion for any other reason because I believe the fetus is a human life. For the reasons why I believe it is a human life you can follow this link:

Continuation of "Abortion ban in South Dakota!"

 

[bob_kark]

The decision to have an abortion is hard only for some women. I would expect a high correlation between not being bothered by the decision, and being willing to make a false accusation.

As for your suicide reason, as you said, getting an abortion can be quite stressful, no matter how the pregnancy started. I don't see why you think that suicide is a danger in cases of rape, but not in general. There are plenty of girls who had consensual sex, got pregnant, and committed suicide.

It is disproportionally higher for cases of rape. If there is a case of mental illness that could lead to suicide or self mutilation, there should be an exception made as well.

 

[bob_kark]

You seem to be working with the assumption that the rape charge would be leveled at a specific person. I'd think that it would be more likely that a woman who wished to get an abortion would level the charge at "tall, dark haired man, I didn't see his face" than at "Benny from the grocery store". This possibility makes false rape stories more likely, but also less problematic. At least as long as you're pro-free abortion.

I agree with you on the claim of the "tall, dark haired man, etc..." I would think that would most likely happen more frequently. However, I think the large loophole I stated before would be the best way to get around the entire issue. That way, if someone were to make a false claim, it would be up to the state to prove so beyond a resonable doubt rather than vice versa.

 

[Zep]

There always seems to be an assumption with the anti-abortion proponents that if abortion was legal that there would never be any questions asked of the woman, nor would other options be explored. They imply it would be as easy as popping in to get a boil lanced.

Obviously there should be many more steps than that. Certainly counselling would be one of the steps involved, by competent professionals. Is this REALLY an unwanted pregnancy? What is the framily situation - supportive?

What it comes down to in the end is this: Women WILL obtain abortions for many reasons, illegal or otherwise. Making them illegal is neither deterrent nor preventative - it simply drives the practice underground. So it would be better all round, if abortions are going to be performed, to make the procedure safe and legal.