Apollo 11 Moon Landing Revisited: Hoax ~vs~ Debunk

[Jack by the hedge]

I really miss these threads. It's just too bad it's all rehashed B.S. I'd say we need a better level of crank, but I don't think the best of them could come up with anything even plausible at this late date.

I sometimes wonder if it's the loss of James Randi that dried up the supply of eager craziness to the forum. It was long ago but I seem to recall lurking as a visitor for quite a long time before I ever dipped a toe into registering, and then not under my real name because there were some frankly unhinged people stomping around the forum back then. I went by my real name on the old Bad Science forum as-was without worrying, but I chickened out of that here.

 

[JayUtah]

The party of the first part. Also possibly the party of the second part. And there ain't no Sanity Clause.

Gojira's origin story is that it's a lizard rendered to that size as a mutation from nuclear testing in the Pacific.

RTG means a radioisotopic thermoelectric generator. It's a gadget that produces a decent amount of electricity for a very long time. That means it's ideal for powering things when you really have no other option. The general idea is that of a thermocouple, which is a solid state thingy that produces electricity directly from heat. The heat is provided by plutonium.

Plutonium 238 isotope (²³⁸Pu) is a radioisotope. Like many of the elements that congregate around the basement of the periodic table, it is naturally unstable. It wants to decay, which means in this case throwing off bits of the nucleus. ²³⁸Pu does this by throwing off alpha particles—two protons and two neutrons held together by the Strong Force. This is an advantage because while alpha particles are a kind of radiation, they're relatively safe. They do have a lot of kinetic energy which gets converted to heat when the alpha particle hits something that absorbs it.

Plutonium can also undergo nuclear fission when enough of it is assembled in one place—the critical mass. That's not what happens here. It's what happens in a nuclear bomb.

So you have a long-lasting source of heat and a way to convert that heat to electricity. And you don't need anything else, which makes it ideal for use in space when you need electricity. Voyager's RTGs are down to the last dregs of plutonium, but it has lasted nearly 50 years. Apollo used it to power the autonomous surface experiments packages that were left running on the Moon after the astronauts left.

The generator itself was packaged with the experiments. To activate the generator, the astronauts had to extract the fuel catridge (the plutonium dioxide in its packaging) from a separate shielded compartment on the LM and install it in the generator. The shielded compartment keeps the cartridge safe during launch and flight. But ironically it's robust enough to survive re-entry where the rest of the LM descent stage would burn up. Because Apollo 13 brought its lunar module back to Earth, and because no one could easily get out and remove the cartridge, NASA had to deal with a potent radioisotopic fuel source landing somewhere on Earth. So they adjusted the ship's orbit such that it would fall in deep ocean and sink to the bottom. It will just safely sit there for the next 200 years or so until it decays to a negligible degree of emission.

Systems for Nuclear Auxiliary Power - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[welshdean]

@Vixen complains in one post that the evidence * was provided in a manner that a 5 year old could understand, then goes on to demonstrate that she can't understand it herself.
A strange paradox to find yourself in for the self acclaimed top 1%er.

*OP video

 

[PSXer]

From what I hear, it's a bad idea to get an alpha particle generator inside of your body. Outside, it's blocked by the dead layer of skin but inside it's a different story. That's why radon gas, generated from the decay of uranium, is no fun. I think I've been pretty successful in not ingesting too many alpha generators so far in my life.

 

[JayUtah]

From what I hear, it's a bad idea to get an alpha particle generator inside of your body.

It is. Hence the cladding in the case where the fuel element is of an ingestible size. In those designs, you mill the plutonium into lots of very tiny spheres (so that it safely disperses if the fuel canister is ruptured, say, at altitude). Then you clad each little sphere in a material that absorbs the alpha particles and converts them to heat. These employ exotic materials like iridium.

Also, you can use these little plutonium beads in bearings, not as the ball bearings themselves but as little heaters to keep lubricants from freezing.

 

[junkshop]

Also, you can use these little plutonium beads in bearings, not as the ball bearings themselves but as little heaters to keep lubricants from freezing

I don't know quite why*, but this little science nugget pleases me enormously. Thank you.

_{*and I'm not even drunk, for once.}

 

[JayUtah]

I don't know quite why, but this little science nugget pleases me enormously. Thank you.

You're welcome. Raise a glass to all those rovers on Mars whose bearings are so well designed that the wheels break before the bearings seize.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I don't know quite why*, but this little science nugget pleases me enormously. Thank you.

_{*and I'm not even drunk, for once.}

If you think those nuggets of plutonium are fun...

 

[junkshop]

You're welcome. Raise a glass to all those rovers on Mars whose bearings are so well designed that the wheels break before the bearings seize.

Don't encourage me.

edited to remove things that needed to be removed, or things that I wanted to remove, or both. I've lost track. An editing definitely happened, though. Of that, we can be sure.

 

[EHocking]

I really miss these threads. It's just too bad it's all rehashed B.S. I'd say we need a better level of crank, but I don't think the best of them could come up with anything even plausible at this late date.

I preferred interacting with JREF cranks who actually believed their argument and posts.
There was a degree of integrity about them even if their debating tactics were sometimes “flawed”.

 

[JesseCuster]

I don't know quite why*, but this little science nugget pleases me enormously. Thank you.

There's actually interesting things to be learned just reading this thread.

Because of this thread, I've been gotten more interested in the subject, and I've found a great YouTube channel with dozens of videos about the engineering of everything from the terminal countdown sequencer for the Saturn V launch, the design of the engine for the ascent stage, the ablative heat shield used for reentry, etc. There's endless rabbit holes you can lose yourself in.

Despite Vixen's desperate flailing and polemics, some of use are learning cool new stuff.

If it was hoax, considering the level of detail and effort they went to to hoax every last detail, it might have just been easier to go to the moon. That I agree with. A very impressive hoax if it was one.

 

[Joe Random]

I preferred interacting with JREF cranks who actually believed their argument and posts.
There was a degree of integrity about them even if their debating tactics were sometimes “flawed”.

I was drawn to JREF on the web from alt.usenet.kooks on USENET by a specific nutjob astrologer (RIP Earl C.) ; I just wanted the entertainment of seeing him get dismantled. But as a side effect - watching people seriously and methodically design tests for the dowser Edge and seeing that test's aftermath taught me my first big chunk of critical thinking. He wasn't an abusive loon or troll, but rather someone who honestly believed in abilities which he didn't actually posses. Seeing how others designed tests for those claimed abilities, rather that just mocking a 'kook', was more instructive than I realized at the time.

Coolest thing about many of these conspiracy threads is learning things I would never know if it weren't for learned people in different fields explaining in detail why any given CT is total rubbish.

 

[JayUtah]

I've found a great YouTube channel with dozens of videos about the engineering of everything from the terminal countdown sequencer for the Saturn V launch, the design of the engine for the ascent stage, the ablative heat shield used for reentry, etc.

That sounds very much like "apollo11space." Their research is top-notch, but for some reason their narrator grates on me.

 

[PSXer]

If you think those nuggets of plutonium are fun...

I don't see a problem with this, as long as you make sure to use a screwdriver to keep it from going critical.

 

[kookbreaker]

I was drawn to JREF on the web from alt.usenet.kooks on USENET by a specific nutjob astrologer (RIP Earl C.) ;

Hah! Earl C was never an astrologer. He was just another run-of-the-mill wannabee psychic, although he billed himself as an "emotionologist".

Ed Wollman was the astrologer/creeper/utter nutcase.

Both of them won kook-of-the-month awards, if not the yearly award.

 

[Axxman300]

I preferred interacting with JREF cranks who actually believed their argument and posts.
There was a degree of integrity about them even if their debating tactics were sometimes “flawed”.

They all got jobs at The Daily Mail, Sun, and Fox News. If you don't believe me just review the coverage of the UAP thing. Fact-checking? Forget about it.

 

[JesseCuster]

That sounds very much like "apollo11space." Their research is top-notch, but for some reason their narrator grates on me.

Yup, that's the channel. I quite like the narrator's voice. Anyway, a lot of stuff for me to get through.

 

[Joe Random]

Hah! Earl C was never an astrologer. He was just another run-of-the-mill wannabee psychic, although he billed himself as an "emotionologist".

Ed Wollman was the astrologer/creeper/utter nutcase.

Both of them won kook-of-the-month awards, if not the yearly award.

Since it's clear you grok USENT you'll appreciate this - I received my first and only Warlording (ref - alt.fan.warllord) by having too many Ed Wollman quotes in my .sig. I guess I could have summarized them all by his repetitive "did you have any astrology to discuss, abuser?' line.
Ed Wollman might be the only USENET poster responsible for more cross-posting than BIIL 'palmjob' Palmer.

If I'm not much mistaken (which I very frequently am) Earl C. helped to coin the term 'sock puppet' when he posted as Mary Jo WIley.

Gods, I'm old.

 

[kookbreaker]

Since it's clear you grok USENT you'll appreciate this - I received my first and only Warlording (ref - alt.fan.warllord) by having too many Ed Wollman quotes in my .sig. I guess I could have summarized them all by his repetitive "did you have any astrology to discuss, abuser?' line.
Ed Wollman might be the only USENET poster responsible for more cross-posting than BIIL 'palmjob' Palmer.

Yeah. Ed was fond of putting in his private astrology newsgroup in the replies and then complaining to service providers when people replied. It rarely worked out the way he wanted.

If I'm not much mistaken (which I very frequently am) Earl C. helped to coin the term 'sock puppet' when he posted as Mary Jo WIley.

Gods, I'm old.

Yup. His was not the first sock puppet used that was used but "Mary Jo Willey" and "Allen Fairbridge" ended up leading to the coining of the term.

There used to be a few old sites that documented it, but this is the only one I can find these days (you need to scroll down)

sock puppet

Hand puppets which are created by covering the hand with a sock, the mouth created by a rubber band or stitching which allows the opposable thumb of the...

everything2.com

 

[Foster Zygote]

There's actually interesting things to be learned just reading this thread.

Because of this thread, I've been gotten more interested in the subject, and I've found a great YouTube channel with dozens of videos about the engineering of everything from the terminal countdown sequencer for the Saturn V launch, the design of the engine for the ascent stage, the ablative heat shield used for reentry, etc. There's endless rabbit holes you can lose yourself in.

Despite Vixen's desperate flailing and polemics, some of use are learning cool new stuff.

If it was hoax, considering the level of detail and effort they went to to hoax every last detail, it might have just been easier to go to the moon. That I agree with. A very impressive hoax if it was one.

I've been down that rabbit hole for decades and I still learn new things fairly regularly. For example, years ago I learned that the Kapton film on the LM was deliberately wrinkled. It was applied in multiple layers, and to minimize physical contact between each sheet, they purposely wrinkled it, because in a vacuum the only paths for transfer of heat energy are radiation, which is a slow process, and conduction, which is much faster. There's an old film of Grumman technicians in clean suits with a stack of Kapton sheets on a table, and they're crumpling them up and putting them in plastic bins to take to the assembly bay.

There's also an old release about the Apollo TV cameras that I've been trying to find again for some time. I had a PDF file of it on an old computer that died, but I can't seem to find it again now. Anyway, it had loads of cool information about technical aspects of the Westinghouse and RCA cameras, as well as the technology involved in sending the images to earth, the network that received the signals, their transmission around the world, etcetera. There was even a cool chapter near the end about the advances in video compression that made significant improvements to the picture quality from the RCA cameras used on the J-Missions. NASA hadn't even sought out such technology - there was a California based video company that had developed the compression methods and they approached NASA with it on their own. For the early '70s, the TV images from the last three missions was actually damned close to the quality of live TV from, say, a major sports event.