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Merged (edited) General thoughts about Christianity and the bible

Rusty Tyler said:
It would be dishonest to claim that all healing stories are false.
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No it wouldn't.
Rusty Tyler said:
I witnessed a healing myself.
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You're not so gullible to believe you witnessed a miracle. Or are you?
Tell me when they document an amputee growing back an appendage.
Rusty Tyler said:
I have had many opportunities to pray for people in need. I rarely know the outcome.
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Intercessory prayer has NEVER been demonstrated to be any more effective than chance.
Rusty Tyler said:
But there was one instance where it was clear what happened.

An evening healing service at our church drew a number of people to the front of the church. The leader had everyone in line turn to the right and lay hands on the person in front of them.

I was at the end of the line so there was no one to pray for me.
However, the man in front of me had come in using a cane. (unusual for him) He had an injury that he wanted prayer for. He was in a lot of pain.

We were learning an interview style of praying for the sick/injured. So, I asked him questions to get a benchmark to start from.

I prayed for him and then asked him if he felt anything. He said he felt a tremendous heat on his back where I had been laying hands. I felt it too, but didn't tell him about it. I wanted to hear from him.

So, we pressed in again and kept at it. Then he reported that the pain was gone. He left the prayer line and walked around the sanctuary waving the cane in the air.

Reminded me of this. (the Apostle Peter, a mere human) And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. - Acts 3:8 NIV

The next Sunday morning the healed man testified that he had been healed by God, and he pointed to me as the one who had prayed for him.
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Wow! You would believe anything.
 
arthwollipot said:
So did I. Since you love stories, here's mine.

It was at one of those revivals. You know the ones. A visiting pastor was rousing the rabble, as they do, and he called for people to come forward for healing. This was one of those churches where the guy up front prays for people and they fall over, you know the ones?

Anyway, one person came up to the front, being pushed in a wheelchair. The pastor did his thing, and they got up out of their wheelchair and walked! A miracle?

Not so fast.

I didn't know this person in the wheelchair. They were a complete stranger to me. I didn't know what their ailment was for which they required a wheelchair. I didn't know anything about them. Furthermore, most wheelchair users, if they have legs at all, can stand and walk a certain amount regardless. I have since learned that some travelling pastors (and their crew) actually bring wheelchairs with them and offer them to the elderly or people who exhibit difficulty walking or who use a mobility aid like a cane. Such people of course could walk - the wheelchair is a courtesy. After the "healing" I never saw them again. I never found out whether they went back to the wheelchair or they danced away like Fred Astaire.

So this person - whom I repeat, I did not know - stood up out of a wheelchair and took a few steps. Is that really all that miraculous?
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You want to watch 2 movies.
The first is Marjoe
It is a 1972 Academy Award-winning documentary that follows former child evangelist and faith healer Marjoe Gortner as he exposes the deceptive tactics and lucrative showmanship of the Pentecostal revivalist circuit.
The Premise:Ordained at just four years old, Marjoe Gortner spent his childhood as a "miracle child," drawing massive crowds across the Bible Belt. As an adult, he decided to leave the faith, but allowed filmmakers Howard Smith and Sarah Kernochan to trail him on his final "farewell to the faith" tour.

Key Elements of the Film: Behind-the-scenes access: Gortner openly explains the tricks of the trade, demonstrating to the crew how he whips crowds into states of fervent euphoria to maximize financial donations.

Preacher vs. Performer: The film brilliantly contrasts Gortner's cynical behind-the-scenes interviews with his highly charismatic, hypnotic performances on stage.

The Religion Business: Rather than attacking religion itself, the documentary serves as an expose on religious hucksterism, the psychology of the audience, and the mechanics of the revivalist circuit before the rise of modern televangelism

Also watch the Steve Martin movie Leap of Faith. A comedy about the same thing
 
Here's another cool story, from David Foster Wallace:

There are these two guys sitting together in a bar in the remote Alaskan wilderness. One of the guys is religious, the other is an atheist, and the two are arguing about the existence of God with that special intensity that comes after about the fourth beer. And the atheist says: “Look, it’s not like I don’t have actual reasons for not believing in God. It’s not like I haven’t ever experimented with the whole God and prayer thing. Just last month I got caught away from the camp in that terrible blizzard, and I was totally lost and I couldn’t see a thing, and it was 50 below, and so I tried it: I fell to my knees in the snow and cried out ‘Oh, God, if there is a God, I’m lost in this blizzard, and I’m gonna die if you don’t help me.’” And now, in the bar, the religious guy looks at the atheist all puzzled. “Well then you must believe now,” he says, “After all, here you are, alive.” The atheist just rolls his eyes. “No, man, all that was was a couple Eskimos happened to come wandering by and showed me the way back to camp.”
 
Norman Alexander said:
Is this how you judge the veracity of their religious claims? Through friendly snacking?
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You can tell a lot about a church based on their chili. - LOL

I had heard plenty about LDS growing up. They were considered to be a cult.
They gave me a copy of the Book of Mormon in which I wrote some debunk notes.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
I'm curious as to why that is. Have you any idea what may have caused this conflict?
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Some other Christians that I respected held the view that evolution was the right way to view origins.

But then I ran into doctrinal issues. (if Adam was not the first man)

This scripture below talks about the two Adams.
Condemnation and sin came through the first Adam.
Justification, righteousness and life came through the second Adam. (Christ)

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
Rusty Tyler said:
Some other Christians that I respected held the view that evolution was the right way to view origins.

But then I ran into doctrinal issues. (if Adam was not the first man)

This scripture below talks about the two Adams.
Condemnation and sin came through the first Adam.
Justification, righteousness and life came through the second Adam. (Christ)

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
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Again, you are quoting your book as evidence your book is truth.

Anyone can do the same with any other book.
 
The subject was apparently known to the congregation, since he is reported to have come in with a cane, which was "unusual for him." You could only know something like that if you knew the subject's regular habits. The story reports foregoing what was apparently some kind of intake protocol, which might have helped us determine what the person might have suffered. This would have given us information about the likelihood of it being a transitory condition. As near as I can tell, no effort was made to determine what the actual injury or condition might have been. As for the notion of religious fervor providing a psychosomatic response: asked and answered. Religious fervor releases endorphins and adrenaline, which are part of the sympathetic nervous system. This system tends to block pain and thus increase an organism's ability to fight or flee. It's a real effect, but in most cases it's temporary. The key is that it just has to be temporary enough for spontaneous healing or regeneration to occur on its own.

In any case I can recount any number of "faith healing" anecdotes from any number of faith traditions (including those the OP dismisses as cults), as well as anecdotes detached from any faith components. ACL tears are the most common leg injury. They are also a ligament tear especially prone to spontaneous healing without the intervention of either surgery or warm-fuzzies. The lack of detail in the anecdote that would allow other hypotheses to be developed and tested leaves us (as usual) to decide the question on parsimony alone. This is the case with anecdotal evidence that supplies only attribution instead of testable evidence of causation.
 
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JayUtah said:
I want to know why you accept some claims of supernatural occurrence at face value and reject others such as the ones coming from the Mormons.
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I'm not familiar with the LDS claims of supernatural events.
But considering the source, I probably wouldn't agree.
 
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