Why Are the Majority of Those in Hell the Poor and Oppressed Masses?

[Thermal]

Motion to move this to its own thread, or merge with an existing thread on the topic, of which there are Legion? Unless we are getting poor, oppressed, and/or in a crowded Turkish Hell, this seems the wrong place?

 

[Pixel42]

Just stumbled across this on another site:

"Believing the bible makes you a christian, Understanding the bible makes you an atheist."

Seems relevant to the current discussion.

I once saw a survey of lapsed Christians which asked their main reason for losing their faith. Third was the problem of evil, second was talking to nonbelievers, first was reading the bible.

 

[EHocking]

Motion to move this to its own thread, or merge with an existing thread on the topic, of which there are Legion? Unless we are getting poor, oppressed, and/or in a crowded Turkish Hell, this seems the wrong place?

Motion to send Icerat $25 to buy the module to allow us to use the “Ignore Thread” function.

 

[Helen]

I have never been a believer, so I have only ever looked at religions from the outside, and they all seem equally flimsy and unbelievable to me (although some are far more fun than others). And remarkably similar.

As for muslims who convert to christianity, so what? Many christians convert to islam as well.

 

[Mojo]

"I said Thor's day, not Thursday, you illiterate twit!"

That's how "Thursday" is pronounced where I'm from.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Here is something that happened to me on another forum.



I was on another forum years ago where a man was having a rant which ended in an absolute fit by writing this:
"... consult with your Holy Spirit and get back to me!"

Yikes! It was a real scorcher of a post. Had to wear oven mitts to read it. - LOL

I was still reeling when I heard very clearly, "Answer him."
Say what? "Er... what should I say?"
No reply, as usual. - LOL


I hit REPLY and took a deep breath and just started typing.
Words were going into the post with little thinking effort from me.
I reviewed what I had written and fixed the obvious spelling errors.
Marveling at what I had written, but a bit uncomfortable. I hit SEND.

I had asked him to flip open a Bible and point randomly to a verse that would speak to him.
Under normal circumstances I don't recommend doing that. But... whatever. ???

The next day I heard back from the guy. He was a completely different person.
Something had changed. He told me that he had in fact randomly opened the Bible and pointed to a verse.

The verse is pasted below.


When he read "before the silver cord is severed" he was overcome with God's presence.
The post I had delivered spoke to the pain he was experiencing. Which I had no knowledge of.

He shared that he had lost a child and his wife in childbirth. He was angry and bitter.
The "silver cord" had reminded him of the umbilical cord "severed" at birth.

He pressed me to tell him the color of his wife's hair.

I said that would be an abuse of the gift, but for some reason I was seeing red hair in my mind's eye.
BINGO. Red hair.


Ecclesiastes 12:6 NIV
Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
and the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
and the wheel broken at the well,

..and then everyone stood up and applauded.


Cool story bro.

 

[Helen]

That's how "Thursday" is pronounced where I'm from.

Same here, predictably.

 

[Darat]

Same here, predictably.

How dare you steal OUR day names!

 

[Helen]

How dare you steal OUR day names!

Sorry! Won't do it again. Until tomorrow...
(We don't do Saturday, but that's the only one, otherwise we ..."steal YOUR" day names. But today is lördag here, bath day, not the day of some foreign bloke.)

 

[Darat]

I once saw a survey of lapsed Christians which asked their main reason for losing their faith. Third was the problem of evil, second was talking to nonbelievers, first was reading the bible.

There's a joke about folk going to a seminary, it's a cemetery for belief.

 

[Rusty Tyler]

I don't care what the Bible claims. I care about what you can prove with objective, testable evidence.

Spiritual realities always leave room for doubt.
You either believe, or you don't.

I have had many opportunities to pray for people in need. I rarely know the outcome.
But there was one instance where it was clear what happened.

An evening healing service at our church drew a number of people to the front of the church. The leader had everyone in line turn to the right and lay hands on the person in front of them.

I was at the end of the line so there was no one to pray for me.
However, the man in front of me had come in using a cane. (unusual for him) He had an injury that he wanted prayer for. He was in a lot of pain.

We were learning an interview style of praying for the sick/injured. So, I asked him questions to get a benchmark to start from.

I prayed for him and then asked him if he felt anything. He said he felt a tremendous heat on his back where I had been laying hands. I felt it too, but didn't tell him about it. I wanted to hear from him.

So, we pressed in again and kept at it. Then he reported that the pain was gone. He left the prayer line and walked around the sanctuary waving the cane in the air.

Reminded me of this. (the Apostle Peter and John, mere humans had something better than silver or gold to offer the beggar)
And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. - Acts 3:8 NIV

The next Sunday morning the healed man testified that he had been healed by God, and he pointed to me as the one who had prayed for him.

 

[Rusty Tyler]

Motion to send Icerat $25 to buy the module to allow us to use the “Ignore Thread” function.

Here you go. Free of charge. (top of page, right)

 

[EHocking]

Here you go. Free of charge. (top of page, right)

View attachment 71508

Not watching and hidden from view are two different things.
But you’re new to the forum, so that’s understandable.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Spiritual realities always leave room for doubt.
You either believe, or you don't.

I have had many opportunities to pray for people in need. I rarely know the outcome.
But there was one instance where it was clear what happened.

An evening healing service at our church drew a number of people to the front of the church. The leader had everyone in line turn to the right and lay hands on the person in front of them.

I was at the end of the line so there was no one to pray for me.
However, the man in front of me had come in using a cane. (unusual for him) He had an injury that he wanted prayer for. He was in a lot of pain.

We were learning an interview style of praying for the sick/injured. So, I asked him questions to get a benchmark to start from.

I prayed for him and then asked him if he felt anything. He said he felt a tremendous heat on his back where I had been laying hands. I felt it too, but didn't tell him about it. I wanted to hear from him.

So, we pressed in again and kept at it. Then he reported that the pain was gone. He left the prayer line and walked around the sanctuary waving the cane in the air.

Reminded me of this. (the Apostle Peter and John, mere humans had something better than silver or gold to offer the beggar)
And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. - Acts 3:8 NIV

The next Sunday morning the healed man testified that he had been healed by God, and he pointed to me as the one who had prayed for him.

..and then everyone stood up and applauded.

Cool story bro.

 

[Rusty Tyler]

Motion to send Icerat $25 to buy the module to allow us to use the “Ignore Thread” function.

New thread.

Merged Thread '(edited) General thoughts about Christianity and the bible'

May 23, 2026

A previous topic asked: Why are some beliefs impervious to all evidence and reason?
https://internationalskeptics.com/f...impervious-to-all-evidence-and-reason.290194/

Quote from Thread starter @Puppycow

"Some people, I think, can change their beliefs based on new evidence, but it seems that many,
perhaps even most, have at least some beliefs which they will not change for any reason."

In a previous (current) thread we were discussing the validity of NDEs.
Despite reasonable evidence (in my opinion) the majority dismissed the...

• Rusty Tyler
• Replies: 4,641
• Forum: Religion and Philosophy

 

[Darat]

Spiritual realities always leave room for doubt.
You either believe, or you don't.

I have had many opportunities to pray for people in need. I rarely know the outcome.
But there was one instance where it was clear what happened.

...snip...

We've tested prayer (and yes the prayers were genuine believers) and we found no difference between any outcomes for those prayed for and those not prayed for that wasn't statistically insignificant.

But we can try it right now - let me remind you of what the bible says:

Mark 11:24 - Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.​

Please pray for your god to change the colour of my text in this post and lets see if he can do it.

I shall also pray to Zeus and ask him to do the same.

Shall we see which one has more evidence after our prayers?

Oh and if you say you aren't meant to test your god, your god would disagree with you:

Isaiah 7​

​

....Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, “Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.” But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.” Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign....​

Will you try your god's patience? I would recommend not doing so he - ain't renowned for his patience....

 

[Rusty Tyler]

We've tested prayer (and yes the prayers were genuine believers) and we found no difference between any outcomes for those prayed for and those not prayed for that wasn't statistically insignificant.

That's a tough one.

I used to fellowship with a group that said:
"If only one out of a hundred healing prayers are answered, is it still worth it?"

I ask: "Why aren't 100% of healing prayers answered?"

Jesus' own healing ministry was frustrated by unbelief in His hometown.
I think we are experiencing the same thing in the west.
Why are healings and supernatural events common elsewhere but rare here in the west?

Mark 6:4-6 NIV
Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town,
among his relatives and in his own home.”
5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.
6 He was amazed at their lack of faith. ...

 

[P.J. Denyer]

We've tested prayer (and yes the prayers were genuine believers) and we found no difference between any outcomes for those prayed for and those not prayed for that wasn't statistically insignificant.

But we can try it right now - let me remind you of what the bible says:

Mark 11:24 - Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.​

Please pray for your god to change the colour of my text in this post and lets see if he can do it.

I shall also pray to Zeus and ask him to do the same.

Shall we see which one has more evidence after our prayers?

Oh and if you say you aren't meant to test your god, your god would disagree with you:

Isaiah 7​

​

....Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, “Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.” But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.” Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign....​

Will you try your god's patience? I would recommend not doing so he - ain't renowned for his patience....

I thought there was no effect when patients were not aware that they were being prayed for, a small but measurable nocebo (negative) effect when they were aware? Or am I misremembering?

 

[Pixel42]

Spiritual realities always leave room for doubt.
You either believe, or you don't.

I have had many opportunities to pray for people in need. I rarely know the outcome.
But there was one instance where it was clear what happened.

An evening healing service at our church drew a number of people to the front of the church. The leader had everyone in line turn to the right and lay hands on the person in front of them.

I was at the end of the line so there was no one to pray for me.
However, the man in front of me had come in using a cane. (unusual for him) He had an injury that he wanted prayer for. He was in a lot of pain.

We were learning an interview style of praying for the sick/injured. So, I asked him questions to get a benchmark to start from.

I prayed for him and then asked him if he felt anything. He said he felt a tremendous heat on his back where I had been laying hands. I felt it too, but didn't tell him about it. I wanted to hear from him.

So, we pressed in again and kept at it. Then he reported that the pain was gone. He left the prayer line and walked around the sanctuary waving the cane in the air.

Reminded me of this. (the Apostle Peter and John, mere humans had something better than silver or gold to offer the beggar)
And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. - Acts 3:8 NIV

The next Sunday morning the healed man testified that he had been healed by God, and he pointed to me as the one who had prayed for him.

Do you know what confirmation bias is? What anecdotal evidence is, and why it's unreliable? Why the scientific method needed to be invented? What survivorship bias is?

If prayer worked insurance companies would be charging Christians lower premiums for life and health insurance than atheists. Any effect that was statistically significant would be noticed by them, if no-one else.

 

[Pixel42]

I thought there was no effect when patients were not aware that they were being prayed for, a small but measurable nocebo (negative) effect when they were aware? Or am I misremembering?

That's my recollection too.